The Hilltop Glove Podcast | Dr. Napoleon Wells

[00:00:00] DJ And?: Hey everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the Hilltop Glove Podcast. Today we have the pleasure of speaking with Dr.

Napoleon Wells. The best and most electrifying psychologists in 

[00:00:09] Napoleon Wells: the world. Big facts, . 

[00:00:11] DJ And?: Napoleon is originally from the Bronx, New York, and has lived in Columbia since late 2011. Napoleon is a practicing clinical psychologist and former Clain professor specializing in the treatment of trauma and anxiety disorders.

He has used his background and expertise to deconstruct the psychology of racism and supremacy, including the performance of his Ted Ex talk entitled The Cure for Racism. Napoleon is also a. Social Justice Communis and published author of Black Speculative Fictions works entitled The Siege at 

[00:00:45] Napoleon Wells: Iro i Morro.

Wow. I just make sure I wasn't messing. No, you're okay. I had your back. I had your back. Perfect. 

[00:00:51] DJ And?: a bullet from God's gun and a blade in God's hand. 

[00:00:54] Napoleon Wells: How you doing today? Listen, I'm doing well, man. Thank you for bringing me in. Like, so it sounds like somebody else's life when [00:01:00] you read it like that d it it truly does.

Yeah. But it's, its pleasure to be with all of you today. I hope y'all doing well. Excellent. Thank you for being here. So of course 

[00:01:08] DJ And?: I have myself, DJ, and what I have Tamaya and we also have Mike over here on Mike today. So we are gonna have a great conversation today just asking a couple of questions and just, just trying to see see what you think about certain.

Things that we have to deal with in this day and age. I know our podcast is an interesting one. Mm-hmm. it is for millennials learning how to adult properly. Sure, sure, sure. So there is sometimes in which ongoing process. Ongoing process. And we need to learn. And I, we don't always get the information that we need from our elders to help us grow properly.

So having somebody come over and being able to bridge the gaps. Say it again. Mm-hmm. , lord Jesus. Yeah. We 

[00:01:45] Napoleon Wells: need those lessons. I think, you know, I mean, even before we dive into, you know, any questions if there are, they wanna, if we can't set the table some, I don't know that there's a proper way to adult not giving humanity.

not, [00:02:00] didn't think. Listen, there's, I mean, if the history of humanity has taught us anything, I, I think it's that you have to develop a means of functioning best in the moment where you are true and a significant part of that process. I think even as goal setting. Right. You know, what kind of. Human am I trying to be?

And that sometimes requires that assess what were the strengths and the weaknesses of the plan that was placed before us by our parents. Mm-hmm. and our ancestors. What are our core values and how do we inform those? How do we feed ourselves? What kind of psychological food are we getting every day? And what was given to us?

How do we challenge that better? Develop that? What kind of influences do we surround ourselves with? And then how do we get energy and gain energy from our environment? How do we get our needs met? You know, what is our motivation? Ooh, this gonna be a good episode. Right. I think a lot of, you know, a lot of that moves us in a direction where we, if we can call it adult, adult, that I think is just developed better.

Mm-hmm. , they're always [00:03:00] growing and growing. Good point. Until they put us in the ground at some point, and then we become just another part of that cycle and whatever way happens. Excellent. Well, we always start 

[00:03:09] DJ And?: off the same way. Okay. And it's always necessary. Okay. We gotta ask you about your early beginnings and 

[00:03:15] Napoleon Wells: influences.

Huh. So I'm from the Bronx, New York. Right. Big Bronx Energy, always, you know, boo you down, boo you down. Big Bronx. And I was raised in the Bronx in the eighties, so the crack cocaine. Yeah. Lot of burned out buildings. But my parents, what I would say is that they did a lot to try to make certain that we live as sound a life with regard to our conduct as possible.

And so they were, I'm going to say products of their generation. You whooped kids' asses to get 'em to act, right? Mm-hmm. True. You know, you, you yelled them into shape. Mm-hmm. , you pushed them and coerced them into shape as much as you could. So the support looked a certain way. Yeah. Right. And a lot of [00:04:00] folks in our generation now have moved into the spaces where they call it reparenting.

Right. I'm trying to raise myself to be in the way that I would've loved for my parents to do so. My parents were black parents in the Bronx in the eighties, so there was, you know, poor black and brown people in our community. Even still on the block while I was raised. Right now, 196 and Mars, you know, my block cuz you hit the corner and there's a Puerto Rican flag, king between two buildings.

That's how you know you hit Morris A. My mom still lives there, you know, heavy New Yorker. Doesn't drive, doesn't have a license, doesn't want me to. Yeah. You know, is absolutely not in that space. So New York, for me at that point, early beginnings was trying to figure out why people were so self-destructive.

Mm-hmm. and myself being a bit of a strange child in that I think my parents allowed us a lot of room to pursue our interests. Mm-hmm. and mine tended to be comic books, skateboarding, but [00:05:00] also hip hop. A lot of sports, basically anything that I wanted to be in, you know? So my father was like, if you wanna get good at expressing yourself in competition with others, you need to learn how to play chess.

Smart. And he didn't have a kind approach to it. Oh wow. You know, when he set the board up, now this is, this is war from going so move up. Right? Yeah. And so I developed an understanding like, okay man, you know, there are small pieces of meat in the world because of all the poverty we experienced. You have to competitively go get it.

Yeah. And hip hop moved into that space for all of us in the same way. Right? We can only listen to so many voices and they have to be the very best one. Anything you were doing in New York at the time be good at it or shut up about it? . Right. You can't do it. And I think that has even influenced a lot of our development later in that we, new Yorkers of my, are a struggle with what hip hop is.

Mm. And that almost anybody can do it. [00:06:00] And we look at it like, yo, these niggas is not nice, man. How you, you can't touch the mic. It's terrible. But true, true. In many ways it's why hip hop is so powerful is that it does allow for access for everyone. And that was a powerful voice at that time, is like, do whatever you're interested in.

Right? There was so much art that was around at that time. Ramel Z was huge, you know, he was bigger than Basquiat was. Yeah. I can recall at that point. And, you know, rest in peace to both. But there was this sense of, do whatever you feel. You should be doing, but be prepared to fight for it. Mm gotcha.

Because if you were a skateboarder at that point, cats on the block was not hearing that. Gonna have to throw some hands like somebody coming for you, they going give you booze, man. Like folks always valued intelligence. Yeah. You know, they valued cunning in many ways. They valued understanding and being able to engage with your environment.

But difference was treated as different, is treated everywhere. [00:07:00] Everywhere. Yeah. So there was a lot of art that was around, there was incredible crushing poverty that was around, there was crack cocaine in the background, but there were my parents who were always solid. Right. And I don't mean that they were perfect, my father was a pretty violent alcoholic, but when he sobered up, he was making breakfast, making sure we got to school, you know, there for discipline.

So it was a very odd space for me to be in. Right. I'm trying to understand people. Mm-hmm. . And I think even then being very young, you know, having a couple of siblings, older brother, younger sister, And seeing how just destroyed our communities were by epidemic that was raging around us and trying to get a sense of why people were striving or why they were doing what they were doing.

And I imagine that that's where my fascination with psychology probably started. Didn't have a sense as a kid, I wanted to be a psychologist. I just wanted to make sense of why people were doing what they would doing. Right. To figure 'em out. Yeah. Yeah. Like [00:08:00] what was it that was making people tick? Why was my father so disturbed?

Why did he shout and scream so very much? And why did he decide alcohol was something that he would move toward? And in a lot of instances, how was it he was popping up when he was sober and being so loving? Like it was just over my head. Weird. Yeah. Right, right. It was over my head. Right. You know, and my parents seeing how.

Other children behave. Why were they pushing us so hard? I think all of the questions coalesced when I got older and then I kind of stumbled into a profession that allowed me to explore those scientifically. Mm-hmm. in a way. So, you know, it was New York. It was all of the very best and worst of humanity, you know, up and down every street.

Just wild as you can imagine. And just tons and tons of people and a lot of noise . Right. You know, just one of the most amazing places on earth, but a, a hot house for development, you know? Yeah. New York is always gonna apply a lot of pressure. Oh my lord. And it still does, I think. [00:09:00] One of the worst things that happened to the city, and I know a lot of New Yorkers may hear this and they'll either completely agree or vehemently disagree, is the super gangs moving their way into the city.

Cause you in New York City always had crews. Yeah. You know, so my block might be good with the next two blocks. And we got beef, you know, the Dominicans across the concourse. Mm-hmm. , you know, and love to my Dominican people. But y'all know he was fighting back in the . But, but that was kind of what the understanding was, right?

Mm-hmm. , it was all local. Correct. Until, until Reagan's pipeline. Correct. So now you have this federal pipeline, which happens, and then, so folks are moving drugs, cross country, getting arrested and moved into different federal systems. So you now had in the pretty early nineties, in the federal system, in the Northeast and in the Midwest moving into northeastern prisons.

Brothers from the west coast, right? Yeah. And so, The Latin Kings ran the prison system at that time. But you now have brothers who are [00:10:00] bloods moving to the system and they're introducing all of the black population in the prisons who were just the Black Americans, small African inmate population, the very large Jamaican and island population.

You had some of the renegades who were in their spaces now. Everybody had a banner fly under who was black. Wow. So the blood just exploded. And of course that moved down to the streets. So these very crowded streets in New York where everybody is on top of each other. Now you have 500 young men all flying one flat.

Mm-hmm. , that kind of pressure moving around the city right now, like it was a problem in the eighties, but it's even worse, you know, it's, it's brutal in many ways now, but I. , that kind of pressure if you not survive it, but learn how to thrive in it. And it's unfortunate because that kind of reality is true everywhere.

Mm-hmm. , it just happens to be more crowded there. It's true everywhere, wherever you are, that combination density, correct. Mm-hmm. that kind of pressure does create a certain kind of personality. [00:11:00] So, you know, much of that personality has come with me, you know, to Columbia. And I've discovered a lot of, like minds here, , a lot of black minds here and a lot of like drivers here as well.

Oh, wow, . 

[00:11:12] DJ And?: Good point. Very good point. Now do you, would you consider the, the current career that you're in mm-hmm. your dream job? Was it your 

[00:11:23] Napoleon Wells: dream? No, it wasn't my dream. If I'm being honest, I would say my dream was probably at some point to write comic. Oh really? Poet. Oh yeah. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. I, true creative.

Listen, I write shit. Now's a different sort. Yeah. Different content. Yeah. So I would say, I was thinking poetry, I was thinking comments, just, you know, something related to connecting to people. Gotcha. You know, communicating with them. But in many ways, I find psychology to be more an art than science, because I'm a practicing psychologist.

Right. So break, break that. Break that down. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. [00:12:00] So there's the matter of moving into a space with a human being who very often doesn't understand even their own motivation. Mm-hmm. , or why they do what they do, and then helping them to make sense of it and not blame themselves, which we very often do and not blame others.

Mm-hmm. . Right. So one of the benefits of our society now is that we've moved into a space where we engage mental health more. Mm-hmm. . And we want to, in fact see more people in, but. If there is a downside, it's almost like having chimps with automatic weapons though, because our society, society is very carelessly using terms they don't fully understand to tackle 

[00:12:39] DJ And?: Yeah.

Diagnosis 

[00:12:40] Napoleon Wells: all over the place. Yeah. Yeah. So very often you will have someone simply say, yeah, you know, I think everyone around me is narcissist. Well, no, let's, let's try and visit just self as that is. Yeah. That's not quite the same in, in many instances. It's a spectrum and, and Correct. And sometimes I don't think we do enough to, with [00:13:00] the broad, broad concepts.

Right. You know, there was this point in the middle of my career, I was doing a lot of lecturing and I still do, and so. People were tossing out the notion of being woke at almost everyone. If you had an ideal and then a second idea, and it was advocacy for other people, you know, in some ways, and it was collective, then you were woke.

And what I had to very actively tell people is psychologically I don't identify as an ally. And most people don't. They don't do the homework necessary. Yeah. Like they don't really, they want the social currency and points that come with being woke or being an ally or being an advocate, but they aren't doing the necessary work.

Right. The actions, if a, if a member of my white community and neighbors comes to me and tells me that they are an ally, They have to provide for me the documentation that they had a seat at the table for us to develop what their working relationship with me on my behalf is gonna be to, if you simply stepped forward and said, well, I'm an ally.[00:14:00] 

Listen, where are you bonafide? Right, right. Who in fact said that you're good to go and that you can represent this in the same way , but that's good that you question it. Who signed your card? You, you have signed, you're doing the same thing with advocacy. If I'm saying I'm advocating for someone, well, I mean, who is, it gave me my marching orders.

Yeah. And so I think there was a complete, and is a complete lack of cultural humility that is in that space. You know? And as far as I should probably steer clear of wokeness, man. He's . I was about to ask you. We 

[00:14:29] DJ And?: can steer right into it. We can, you 

[00:14:32] Napoleon Wells: know, I'm trying. You gotta dig . There's, there's effective space for us to.

Speak with people and meet them where they are. Yeah. And then build forward, I think as our various communities. Right. You know, we wanna be seen saying the right. Mm-hmm. , even if we don't always believe it. Mm-hmm . And then when people have often spoken with me privately, right. They would pull me aside and they're like, man, I don't know, but I don't wanna say [00:15:00] anything cause I kind of feel this way.

So we've started to talk at people, ah, even in social spaces and score a lot of points on people you didn't know that. You didn't know all of those terms, right? Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. Kim recall this conversation I was having and this brother kept. Stumbling over L G B T and I was like, bro, just say what you're comfortable with cuz you were taking a lot of time to get that right.

Mm. And he was just like, right man. Well, I mean, if I'm saying them GB niggas, are you comfortable with that ? It's gonna allow us to have the conversation. I understand where your heart is now. Don't say it to people outside of our conversation. Right. You know what I'm saying? But I think we, we had to, and we don't have any problem with our language on the, I looked at a couple, I just wanted to make sure you not tell me that my culture is profane, right?

Yes, precisely. I think. A part of what we have done with regard to psychology [00:16:00] and mental health is we've made it so that people feel free to make room for themselves. Yeah. And to attempt to heal. But people are not setting goals and understanding the work that they have to do before they venture into that space.

And by being realistic. Yeah. They're goals when they're going in. You know, I want to be able to learn how to better deal with other people. And what they're really meaning is I wanna know why they do the things that make me feel the way I feel. You know? Good point. Good point. Yeah. It's like setting your attention.

Absolutely. And living intentionally is important. Even when coming into a therapeutic space, you know, a lot of what I work with my patients on, I tell them very early, you're not supposed to feel good all the time. That's not how, that's not how life is meant to be. It just means you have correct . And even in those instances, you know, when you come down, your body is still experiencing the pain.

Emotionally, you're still experiencing the pain and sometimes you've numbed it. So it's worse when you come out on that. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. That happens to you. So. There's the, the nec, there's the necessity, I think for those of us who [00:17:00] are process leaders, not thought leaders, but process leaders to realistically ground people who are gonna engage in that work.

And what's a process leader? Yeah. Talk about that. Yeah. Yeah. So it, for me, therapy is a process. Okay. So if I'm engaging with someone and they're coming into it and they're new, then what I'm going to do is to give them reasonable expectations about what we'll be doing. I'm gonna question how you think.

Yeah. I'm gonna question some of what you believe. I'm gonna ask you to continually organize goals and then be flexible in those. So we're gonna go through the, and this is what progress. Yeah. This is what progress looks like, right? Yeah. Progress very often is going to be painful Progress with regard to mental health sometimes is going to be personal truth telling.

Yeah. So you're gonna move into a space where you say, I, in my own therapeutic process years back was just like, yo, I am not a nice person, bro. like that point in therapy just like, yo, I am. Resentful about what I allowed myself to think reality was. Mm-hmm. . Cause I had [00:18:00] this very intense, focused goal toward, you know, if you work hard and do things appropriately, others will see it and you'll land where you should.

Yeah. Right. And it worked in both ways. I saw myself in some instances being treated differently than others in a positive way. And there were people simply saying, no, I happen to like who he is. Right. And then there were others who were doing better and I saw, okay, this is really a game of politics in many instances.

Not necessarily who is best at what they do or who is working hardest. And I think returning to my belief and love of hip hop and the psychology of hip hop and how it's influenced my career, right? Like I look at Southern hip hop, right? And I have a lot of conversations with friends from back home about.

Why it not only has shaped hiphop, but the world of hiphop global. It has like, why has it come about in this way? And I'm like, well, it's community. It's community and [00:19:00] it's community that has grown it. I think some of that community is missing a little bit in Columbia and in South Carolina. I'm gonna say that.

Can I say this from the interject? Yeah. 

[00:19:10] DJ And?: We don't even force anybody to say this. This is, it has to be a real issue. Yeah's 

[00:19:16] Napoleon Wells: a real issue. So my feeling is as follows. Right. So let, let's take this podcast as an example. The Hilltop Glove works diligently to bring about relationships and conversation and expression and grounding in it around arts in South Carolina.

So someone in some space should identify that this is the official podcast of what? University of South Carolina. Southern College of Charleston. But there should. , there should be pressure from the public to say, in the same way Atlanta gave us this approach to, even if, I think this nigga sucks, he's from Atlanta.

gonna absolutely support [00:20:00] everything he does. Not because I necessarily need to say that I was in it. I need to be able to have the room for everyone in my space to Yes. To move. Yes. In some instances I almost feel like, and I understand I'm an outsider, you know what I'm saying? My, my roots are in South Carolina.

Right. So for y'all that don't know and you wouldn't know, cuz many of you don't know me, right? But I attended the Carolina Baptist Church in the Bronx, New York. It's still on 225th Street across the street from Marble Hill. My granddad started that church. He's from South Carolina, so I was always gonna make my way back here.

Wow. Matter. Carolina, New York connection is strong, strong, strong. It's powerful. Right? So I started family out here in Dole, something area. And so a part of what I've seen making my way back home to my roots, to my family here is I think South Carolina is very often waiting for someone to say we are great.

Yeah. And is waiting for someone outside of our space to give us the approval. We work our [00:21:00] asses off, you know, not question about it, but we are sometimes waiting on someone to say we're great. Where several other places, not all, but several other, they kind of push their own. You know what I'm saying? The West Coast became great when it simply decided we're gonna do it our way without voice.

And you don't have to buy in. Yeah, yeah. You don't have to like it. We're gonna do it our way, but everybody gets on. And I think South Carolina in that space has to, you know what I'm saying? Like preach Jacobs is my man. You might say that I'm biased, right? But everybody out here in this state knows that man, when that man is at an event, each and every one of you should be present buying up everything that he is doing.

Cuz he's the ambassador. He is our diplomat. Yeah. Like he is the mayor. When Fat Rat is performing somewhere, when Dan Johns is performing somewhere, I'm talking about individuals around our state who put on for our state to top glove include like someone in some space needs to very simply say right now, these in fact are our pillars and so we're going to grow them.

Mm-hmm. I imagine, I feel somewhat strongly [00:22:00] about it cuz I had a sister who was a professor at USC some years back at this point, maybe about three years, was kind of like, I see you everywhere, right? Like I see in Virginia, you were at nyu, you've done all these talks all over. I saw you on television and I was like, yeah, I would love to work more.

Yeah. In South Carolina. And I would, but much like this podcast that we're doing, much like our performers, listen man, I am the most electrifying psychologist. The Hilltop Glove is one of the greatest entities and podcasts in the States. It's on the state. Man, I appreciate that. It's on our representatives in the state.

It's on a community in the state to say, no, we're not gonna wait on greatness. Just like Atlanta did in Europe before ourselves. Whatever it is, we're gonna crown ourselves. Yes. And we're gonna put that energy behind what it is we do. Mm-hmm. . And that requires the community to do so. They does. They just gotta buy in and do it.

Now you're already doing it. We're gonna build it. And some, several someones are gonna come behind you and do that. Mm-hmm. , where did we start? I know we got here, but where, where did we start talking about? 

[00:22:58] DJ And?: We were talking about dream 

[00:22:59] Napoleon Wells: [00:23:00] jobs. Got it. Dream jobs. So now, A dream job would've been probably writing comic books.

I read a lot of comic books growing up. Mostly Marvel, but then a lot of independence. You heard of Sanford Green? Oh yeah. No. Listen, I'm, I met Sanford in person just a few weeks back. Yeah. He's my teacher, teacher. Very, very dope. Everything he does is dumb man, Chuck Brown. Dope as well. There know some folks in this state who get busy.

 Psychology happened firmly, probably my freshman year in college. Really? Yeah. Freshman year. Yeah. Took an African American psychology course. I was a polis sci major, but took the course and really started to explore these notions that I saw affected my family overall. Mm-hmm. . My older brother was struggling with his mental health.

He was eventually diagnosed with bipolar disorder, but this is just before he did two stints in prison. I was concerned about my own mental [00:24:00] health cause I was like, bro, I'm a brilliant dude, man, but there are instances when I find myself feeling very angry. I find myself feeling very irritable where I find myself feeling very disturbed and I would literally like try and check and see what he starts.

Right. Let me ask other people. And then started to look into therapy and then started to pursue it. I was kind of like, okay. My understanding from taking that course and then every course after is like our mental health is related to our overall health. True. You know, in every way. But there is so much in the spaces that we can't identify and things that become blind spots.

Yeah. Right. We don't understand a lot of the matrices of behaviors and content of our upbringing that we're geared toward survival and not thriving. Mm-hmm. . Yep. And so in a lot of instances, our parents in their generations and the generation before them, those that just survived survival. The generations since.

How old you folks, if you don't mind me asking? 30, 38. Yeah. So y'all are just behind me. So I'll say roughly our [00:25:00] generation. We were raised by them and then a generation immediately after us, and the one after that. One is a generation that I think is all about finding its own way in a very messy way.

Mm-hmm. , which can appear to be emotionally unwell, but in many instances, I think is courageous. Right? Yeah. They make a mess of it because they're young. Yeah. That's it. Yeah. They can do that, but the, but the reality is, you know, that they aren't. tied into hip hop briefly, right? Mm-hmm. in late eighties, early nineties.

The idea was you go and you get a record deal. Yep. And a record deal is what stamps you, right? Yep. That's how we know we should be listening to you rap. Mm-hmm. . Yes. And listening to Beats that you produce. He got signed. But I think it's amazing about these kids is that they're not waiting for any, don't give shit.

Tell them their voice is worth, no. I'm going to go into my lab and I'm gonna produce something I want to produce, and I'm gonna share it with my community, friends and family, and let's see what they think of it. I don't need an album. I don't need an ep. We recorded, this is 

[00:25:57] DJ And?: going 

[00:25:58] Napoleon Wells: out tomorrow. This is what's going out tomorrow.[00:26:00] 

And that's that. I, there's tremendous courageousness in simply saying, the world is going to hear my voice. It's not going to center me. Mm-hmm. , it's not going to be a tool of erasure where my experience is concerned. Now, the things that they say may seem absolutely out bound in aim, and the things that they do may be outta bound.

But I think the willingness to do it, Yeah. The willingness to engage it. The willingness to challenge a lot of the dynamics that we've given to them emotionally. Right. I heard this is by the name of Lato, right. And she said something that stuck with me, not, I imagine it was a little profound. She said, every time she feels way, instead of going to a therapist, she goes to Twitter.

Cuz that's her therapy states. Oh God. It's like group therapy. Yeah. Now it's the worst possible place you could go to for it. . But our generation would hold it, hold it, hold it. Say again. Yeah. And maybe eventually you go about the business of processing through it. I think. A piece of art that [00:27:00] demonstrates where we are at our best and at our worst is Atlanta.

Donald Glover. Looking at, okay, look at how absurd we are. Yeah, let's smile. But we know we're not our best. Yeah. But we're trying to trudge through life. We're trying to develop an identity still because we're not trying to do it the way our parents did, which was work for somebody for 30 years. Don't retire.

Yeah. Be unhappy. Yeah. We're trying in that way now, social security, they're more courageous, but they're also more delusional. 

[00:27:25] DJ And?: delusion. The delusion, I think, assists 

[00:27:27] Napoleon Wells: them in that fact. Absolutely. Absolutely. But that I'm not delusional,

we're still delusional at times and, and maybe a part of what is necessary, myself. An Afro future is someone who writes black speculative fiction. I think delusion may be necessary in our day to day experience. You know, we have to believe something other than this being reality coping mechanism. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. I think maybe even an advocacy mechanism. Ooh. Maybe even a change mechanism, you know, a chaos [00:28:00] mechanism. You gotta dream it before you can do it. Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. Chaos. He 

[00:28:04] DJ And?: just says something that I'm, see if you can expand upon a little bit. Sure. You talk about chaos mechanism. Sure. And I, I, I had to deal.

Alright. So I like reading strange books and et cetera. And there's one this book I was reading about chaos, magic, and the importance of using chaos in order to create new things and to have fruitfulness. Mm-hmm. , can you explain why chaos mechanisms are important? 

[00:28:26] Napoleon Wells: Yeah. I think in many ways they violate the comfort of the human experience, which is necessary too.

So the notion of chaos, especially in like, Black speculative fiction is that it is as it should be. It should always be changing. And chaos is inherent in that change. Mm-hmm. . And so surf the wave, don't stop it. Exactly. And in many instances, it's a matter of creating what you don't see if you need it, which even though it's moved into black, speculative fiction is exactly how black folks have always, always.

Right. I don't, if I don't see it and I don't have it, but [00:29:00] I need it, I'm gonna find a way to make it. Right. And that's all over the diaspora. Yeah. Right. So it. A notion that is new, but chaos being necessary to upset what become these hard systems that we live over. Okay. It makes more sense. And with, you know, so supremacy in many instances gives us this sense of security.

Right? You know, here's what you do for a living. Here are the laws that you follow, and here are the things that are outside of the bounds of your control. Gotcha. So what the chaos and the notion of chaos in that space allows for, and even some nihilism is like, I don't have to give my full self over to this.

Instead, can I create systems that fight this, that go against this and create a new kind of reality, new vocabularies, new ways of being in new economy, no systems that we can find ourselves in, right? Mm-hmm. , you know, so even this notion of, right, you know what's here on my sweatshirt is more one that several of us who are in the futurist space have talked about, or it's.

Nah, man, we don't have a great black woman [00:30:00] villain and a great black woman hero in fiction spaces that we can build on and project onto. Yeah. Mm-hmm. , and maybe we need that. But y'all listen, the T-shirt says A black girl will save the world. Yeah. Yes. You know, so, so some of what we, we have to essentially do is then create that, and that's chaos that disrupts the system.

And when you do it, when you push those ideas forward, you understand how chaotic it is based on who's opposed to it. Mm-hmm. . And if it's those who are firmly entrenched in the power space in the system, you know, there are those of us who build black women or black queer heroes, and then you will immediately see.

Here comes the resistance in place. And it usually looks one way. It's usually white and male and young. But sometimes it took to mermaid, blue Mermaid, I am woman king, but viola, my, all that stuff come out to speak. And I, I wish in many instances that even those were more chaotic. It, it's a nice approach.

They're, they're more than enough for where we are. I think they're, [00:31:00] they're necessary. Mm-hmm. . And then the idea of chaos is how do we disrupt that completely? So how do we create an entire fiction or an entire world that focuses on black lives and is exclusively mm-hmm. that not what, how white people are influencing them.

Not how the world outside is battering those, but the power is there, the influence is there. And fully realize with these people, their lives are fully realized without that other influence, I think. In many instances, the idea of spell casting and magic, that's why Yeah. Yeah. That's spelling 

[00:31:36] DJ And?: what you're doing as a comic book.

Yeah. 

[00:31:38] Napoleon Wells: Enthusiast. Mm-hmm. . It's huge. It's huge. And we're in a moment where comic books are everywhere. Mm-hmm. . Right. And so you have a lot of people who consider themselves comic book fans. And I'm gonna try not to be one of the big snobs. They mean, I know. 

[00:31:54] DJ And?: You gotta be from 

[00:31:55] Napoleon Wells: the, from the original. Come on.

Well, there are, there are a lot of people that I think are [00:32:00] MCU fans Yes. That aren't necessarily fans of comics overall in general, because if you get into the world of comics, no. There are people that are already in that spell casting space and then that chaos space and creating these new kind of realities, you have to seek 'em out, right?

Mm-hmm. , you know, you have comics like Godhood comics, which gave us the antagonist. And the antagonists are very simply a family of black villains. That's it. That's what they do. Simple. Right. And the heroes are there and they're there and they don't consider themselves villains. They're just like, we're gonna do what really needs to be done.

Mm-hmm. , you know, the heroes work within needs bounds, but we work within the bounds of what we have. And if it puts us at odds with them, that's fine. Right. Like, so be it. Correct. Which it, it's the kind of, we're having the kind of conversations and experiences now that I think are so affirming to young and older black minds and bodies.

Right. You know, the, the world is so open to us right now. Yeah. And in many ways what happens is you have the reality that supremacists [00:33:00] kind of work that comes pushing back. Even the spaces that you're operating in, you know, I am encouraged by what I'm seeing of podcasts. You think of podcasts decade and a decade and a half ago, man, I thought we were gonna die.

I was. You have a strict sports podcast. You have a strict news podcast. I came across. This podcast, these sisters in Atlanta just a couple of weeks ago one of them heard one of my talks and introduced theirself. They're the book Reading Ho . Right. They're launch launching in just a couple weeks. But they were literally like, no, listen man, you know, we're all mothers, where we're black women.

We do a ton of reading, you know, and as they're describing it, for me, I'm in my head like, this podcast could not have been thought of. Right. Or introduced when we initially were pushing into this space. Yeah. Cause we were trying to replicate what we saw on television. Yeah. Correct. And now it's like, well now if there's a hundred people that wanna listen to this, then done, here you go.

Right. And you, you take a [00:34:00] podcast like your own. That has, as in, in my view, in my mind, and looking at your podcasts, one of the pillars, and it sounds like there's several, but one of them is, you know, the Carolinas have something to say. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And so putting those who are in space and the Carolinas who are creating and not creating just one type of art, Art is beautiful.

Let's give everything is art opportunity. Everybody is valid, you know, and what I think is rich there is then creating the conversation cuz it then creates, as we were speaking about somewhat earlier, that kind of connected in festival environment. Now that I know that you were in touch with these folks, if I take something that I've written and I want to talk to the se Arts commission about producing a short film.

Who out here is doing the work around film creation and television creation. We know television knows, but we can start those conversations here as you've done. So that's pillar work. Right. You know, that's necessary work. That's community building work. Mm-hmm. and no, not just the Carolinas, but everywhere Needs to hear that.

Very, very good point. Absolutely. Good point. 

[00:34:58] DJ And?: And this is [00:35:00] just I guess pushing along into some of our questions that we have for you. Psychology is the scientific study of the human mind and its functions. Mm-hmm. , especially those affecting behavior in a given context. Mm-hmm. as we all know, the mind is very complex.

Mm-hmm. . What are some interesting facts that you have discovered about the mind based on people's perspectives? 

[00:35:19] Napoleon Wells: Okay. I. One thing that I've discovered in doing the work is that the mind really isn't very complex. Oh, nah. , I like this. Yeah. I mean, the mind functions, it has a very specific function. Bring in information, uhhuh process that information, and then allow the machine that I'm a part of to function.

Mm-hmm. , based on that information, it's almost everything outside of the mind that's complex and dirty and messy, and then it's fed into the mind. So the mind is having to make sense of this very sloppy, dirty, very inefficient information. It's trying to filter in what it needs, but it's taking in all of the information that is around it and trying to make sense of it.

The mind wants to do a very simple job, so if you [00:36:00] take a child, be kind to the child, make sure the child's needs are met, nine out of 10 times are gonna raise a relatively healthy human. Then there's a matter of what the needs become. What do we feed into that child around what needs are? And then how you get those needs met.

Because then the mind still has the notion of how you get needs met in some way. So we, we have needs for intimacy. Yeah. And connectedness. We have needs for purpose and usefulness. Mm-hmm. , right? How do we, we gain that? If you don't feel that you do a thing well, who started telling you that you don't do these things?

Well, how do you find what it is you, that's where the information becomes this. Like the programming, the concept is very simple, but it's a computer. It's a huge supercomputer, right? Yeah. So if you take your smartphone and you have five Google search items up, and you minimize when it's still running, you know, and that's in fact how mind is working.

It's operating on all of these things. Well, I wanna try a new thing, but one thing that's operating in the background is, you know, my grandparents telling me you'll never be able to do. Or feeling as [00:37:00] if I've failed. So what then becomes the work that we have to do is how do we define failure, right? Cause failing is not only necessary, but it's good.

Mm-hmm. , it can be healthy for us if we process through it. What did I learn? You have someone like Con McGregor, for those of you who don't know, he's an MMA fighter, right? But he was asked maybe about four years. Why he is such a confident individual. And he said, well, it's my approach to failure, right?

Mm-hmm. , and it's, I win, or I learn, that's it. , wow. I win. Or I learn. It's that simple in a space where I didn't perform as well as you thought I should have, or I thought I should, what did I learn right in that space? And then in winning, what did I learn about myself in winning? And maybe I didn't learn enough and that's why I lost there.

Ah, so I, even though I consider him a relatively underdeveloped human overall , he had this brilliant idea that I think all humans can absorb. How do we define what happens to us if something traumatic happens to us? Do I blame [00:38:00] myself for it happening such as abuse? So I was helpless. How do I change forever?

Feeling helpless? And will I always feel this way? The mind is processing that, right? Right. In a very simple way, how do I change my sense of what it means to be helpless or to be helpful, or to be useful, or to be resourceful? Whatever way that is fed, and then even to feel connected or disconnected. Right.

What are my expectations of. What we've done, I think is kind of freeze dried, our approach to mental health and understanding and cognition. So we want four people to feel healthy and well. But folks, I'm gonna tell you right now, you're not gonna self care your way to have, yeah, let me just be the, the 100th to tell you that selfcare is necessary, but it isn't going to be enough.

And what you're telling yourself might be a part of your self care is really you settling as opposed to doing the work to determine what's going to be necessary for your care. Wow. Right? Mm-hmm. , if you're shopping, right, you have that retail therapy that is really more of a sav for a [00:39:00] period of time.

It's not going to, that's doubling effectively. You're just trying to, it's another drug, right? You know, if you are distracting yourself, it's not going to be fully effective. What you have to do is to explore why I feel unwell so often. You know, is it that I don't have a job that feeds me in relationships that feed me?

And am I expecting too much of others based on what they can do? You know? And. I see a lot of couples and very often I try to reframe what their expectations are. You know, I myself been married for, believe, my wife won't hear this 16 years . That's fine. That normal we're we're 16 years in. Right.

Congratulations. So thank you. So if me understanding my wife and looking at her as a human, there's the difference between the person she is and the role that she is in. So she's my spouse, but she is Deidra, she's a human. Mm-hmm. . Right. And I understand the person she's in. She does not like to cook. She has never liked to cook.

It is not something she feels she's good at and she doesn't get very much affirmation from it. So if I think of my spouse in that role, my [00:40:00] spouse, whatever they are, is being someone who has to cook for me every day. I'm gonna be unhappy and disappointed and it would be my fault for having that sense of obligation for that person.

I've set goals which were unreasonable. Yeah. Based on a person. And sometimes we do that to others and it thus unhappy in relationships. So we do it to ourselves. And some of the way in which we think is influenced by how much access we have to other people. Okay. That I can recall some time back seeing that meme.

And it was like, if you can't accept me at my worst, then you don't deserve me at my best. Which is just some of the dumbest shit. , just absolutely some of the, the most irresponsible and childish thinking. But there's so many people who like these things because they're easy access and in reality, you should not be terrorizing people.

And that's a formula. Oh, terrorism. Thinking this way. Thank you. I mean, I know what my rock bottom looks like and I don't want nobody else seeing that shit. Right? Well, but there's a way you can approach it. Right? Okay. You okay? You, you should [00:41:00] be willing to then stratify that, right? If you are willing to make room for me when I'm not at my best, and your reasonable expectation should be that I won't always be at my best, and that should be your expectation of myself.

Ah, okay. When I am better than my worst, how am I going to make that up to you? How am I going to feed back into our relationship? How am I going to let you know that the work that you put into in a room that you helped for me was worth my time? And then how we gonna reciprocate? Cause there's an energy budget with these things.

Absolutely. I mean, that sounds all new age shit. Absolutely. But, but it is. I mean, you wanna quantify mm-hmm. , you got build up and you got pulled down, you gotta balance 

[00:41:36] DJ And?: it out. Right. So it's almost like it's a, it's almost ec economical, right? Absolutely. 

[00:41:41] Napoleon Wells: Oh, sure. Yeah. Absolutely. We don't want to think of ourselves in that way, you know, but you, energy wellness, they're not in exhaustible resources.

Gotcha. You know, we have a limited amount of those things and we can't recharge. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . And there is work required in recharging, but some of the work can be done on the front end if we're very honest with [00:42:00] ourselves about how we function. Mm-hmm. . Right. What type of person am I when I mention. In therapy, learning that I'm not very nice as a person.

It doesn't mean that I became aware that I'm a bad person, . It's just like, no, I'm very driven. Yeah. Right. And if you come into my space, I have expectations and I need to be better about saying what those expectations are and then making room for people who, in many ways aren't aware of what that means or don't know how to function in that space.

And even going so far as to learn people's language and vocabulary emotionally. Mm-hmm. , right? If you say to someone, you know, I want for this person to love me. How did they learn how to give and receive love in their own home? Oh, that's important. And in their own life. And how then, because they may be in their head saying, well, you know, I showed you a lot of love.

Right? There are people always, I, I do workshops, you know, I did this workshop in Sumter, I won't call any names, but there was a gentleman that was like, yeah, you know, well man, my wife keep telling me she's a good woman and I don't know. Well, I mean, how does [00:43:00] she identify? How does she define, how does she create meaning around the space of being a good woman?

Mm-hmm. . Cause in her head, she might be a very hard working woman and saying, that is good. That's a good, right. But you are saying to yourself, well no man, you know, I want for her to show me attention every day. And she doesn't. Mm-hmm. , but your dishes are done, you know, your clothes are washed. Mm-hmm. this different level of understanding and different means of defining it, you know?

And in some instances there's some people who are so completely self obsessed, not even quite narcissist. I wanna make sure that self absorbed separate those two, that they can't fully understand how other people define their reality. And so a part of it is defining reality with others, but also defining it for yourself.

You know? So like, can you break down consciousness and subc. Yeah. So consciousness is what you are fully mindful and aware of. You know, if it's a thought that you have that you are aware of that is within your conscious space, it's something that you can identify as an experience subconscious. These are [00:44:00] things that are operating, but we are not aware of.

Right. So the idea is you have that iceberg, you know, and you have the smaller tip of the iceberg, which is our consciousness. And Freud in particular. And Freud was wrong about a lot of shit. But sure. The subconscious is an area where we look at and we say, no, that's absolutely the case, because most of us are simply older versions of ourselves as children.

We haven't really moved past it. Thank you. Yeah. The things that happened to you while you were a child, you may cope with them. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. somewhat better. But the things that occurred in that space are still very much with you. Yeah. Right. And they impact your culture with regard to the community you were raised in, what that community looks like.

You know, the values that it gave to you. Even the kind of ideas and notions and reality you created in your head to cope with what may have in many instances have been negative experiences. All of that shapes who we are. And then we bring that into the spaces where relationships occur. And we tell ourselves consciously, now, you know, I'm gonna try to do the right thing.

I'm gonna try to be [00:45:00] good, I'm gonna try to, well, very often those experiences are going to come back. Right? Yeah. I think about for myself, graduate school, right? You know, walking into a PhD program for clinical psych, which are very white programs, naturally very stayed programs, typically somewhat quiet.

 My feeling about psychology even then was that it's supposed to be as messy as humans are, and we can't reach as many people with mental health and wellness unless we make it messier. That's amazing. Trying to treat like chemistry people don't fit. It won't work. Right. So, One of the things that I do very openly with my patients, especially if they are men and women of colors, I allow whatever kind of expression they want to have.

If you wanna walk up, extend a hand and shake mine. Good. If you wanna very loudly like I learn to do in my community, like I see my man up the block, it's the, yeah, yeah, I'm gonna set, [00:46:00] but that's gonna be a part of our practice. You see me, you wanna rug run up to me and give me a hug. If that for you is affirming, do so because that's gonna allow for us to create rapport.

I think. A part of what I was given was the very general and necessary sense of how psychology exists as a science. Mm-hmm. , and then the therapeutic piece. I was like, well, no. Now I get to be an artist. Yeah. Ah, I get to play around with that process sound, because every therapist isn't gonna be for everyone.

Right. But for myself, my approach, some of what I think people become attracted to in a number of my talks and a lot of my approach, even in my TED Talk, we're gonna take this difficult concept mm-hmm. , but we're gonna have a conversation where, and I'm gonna take a knee with you. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Right. And I'm gonna ask permission of those, like, you know, am I giving this to you in a way?

That feels in any way relatable to you. Can you attach this to your life? When I was teaching students same thing. Are you able to take this information and see it in your life, in life spaces? If not, it's not [00:47:00] gonna work. Yes. If you walk into my office and you feel that I am the superior and I'm supposed to be telling you about your life, and that's how you're going to get better, psychology is not going to be effective.

Sh Well, if you can say, nah, man. You know, I think I better understand myself, but in my words, I understand my family and what my family did, the generational curses that exist, and my words, what our generation was trying to do for the first time was to break those curses. Mm-hmm. and our parents were pushing back.

Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. I was, but I think 

[00:47:30] DJ And?: before 

[00:47:31] Napoleon Wells: that we didn't even know that was possible. That was just like 

[00:47:34] DJ And?: way 

[00:47:34] Napoleon Wells: supposed, this is your family, you're gonna keep on doing this. Right. What people would tell you what they were trying to do. So the idea was, you know, black in particular, black mothers and fathers were doing their best.

That's, and they were, yeah. They were doing their best based on what they had been given. Yeah. But then there's the necessity to step back and say, Hey, listen, how you were raised may have been unfair. Right? Yeah. If you have the notion that taking someone who is less [00:48:00] powerful than you, in many instances helpless, I'm gonna raise a better, more well developed, healthier version of them by physically abusing that being.

Yes. And if you were in your head saying, no, that's the way to do it. Mm-hmm. . Right. Something fucked you up. Concept that like, if I don't do this, the outside world is going to do 

[00:48:20] DJ And?: worse. 

[00:48:21] Napoleon Wells: Correct. Yeah. And that was them trying to do their best. Right. I get what you're saying. Now we're at a point where it's like, okay, how do I have this conversation with my parents and then with my child?

My mother visited us last in May. Okay. And both she and my mother-in-law both mention and talk about very openly how much agency my son has. Yeah. . And when my son is 15, and I will very often ask him his opinion, you know? How does that feel to you? Understand you did that man, but how does that feel to you?

Mm-hmm. . Right? And they see that amount of agency instead of us telling them, that was right, that was wrong. You're gonna tell 'em, nah, I think that was the wrong thing. But [00:49:00] how does that feel to you? I'm holding you accountable. Mm-hmm. To explaining that. Mm-hmm. , so I'm making this sound decision, so tell me why that was.

Okay. Yeah. . Yeah. You, you 

[00:49:09] DJ And?: walk me through that man back, we get off hook because all you would do be like, Hey, do you want to sit, talk about it, or do you want to get your behind cut? Sure. But I'll get my behind cut. Don't 

[00:49:17] Napoleon Wells: learn anything. Don't learn anything. But you're helping her understand. Sure. At least we're trying to react.

And so very often what I find is there is still the component where. You know, effectively I'm a New Yorker, you say the wrong thing to me, top off. And you know my son, you know, at times. And so you know I'm gonna get, fuck you don't no no's the problem man. Everything. Right. Like that kinda thing. Like check.

Lemme check you real quick. But even that is, it's a remnant of those generational persons that are in place that we're trying to break in this community of youngsters behind us emotionally have chosen to break many of them. Yeah. Right. They haven't always done so well, but they're so powerful. They are.

And they're so young. I think in many [00:50:00] ways they're trying to show us how to do it. We want for them to not make a mess of things. Emotional intelligence like they have, you think they have more, they have access to becoming more emotionally intelligent, but they are not best at wielding it. Mm-hmm. . And I don't think that their goal is always to become more emotionally intelligent.

Very often because they have so much power. I think they're simply trying to hold on. And learning how to wield it. Right. You know, emotional intelligence doesn't tend to be a large or significant or profound goal for them, right. I mean, it should be. But with time, say again? With time. With time. Hopefully it will be, they were given so very much.

When you have all this information at hand so you can stop and say, you know, what is depression? It's, I'm depressed. It's a lot. Yeah. No, not really, man. You might be sad. S another word. It's a spectrum. You might be an emotional teenager. That happens and we're doing that with a lot of our society, not just them.

I mean, I think they engage in it more, but I mean, even in our [00:51:00] generation, we're trying to reframe a lot of ways in which we were raised, in ways in which we think I, in recent years have been trying to be more fair. My relationship with Hip hop, which I love so much because I at points was just like, well, I'm walking away.

Same. You know, I'm not going to but y'all suck. I listen to my old stuff. There was so much that was there. And I think there's even brilliance in the approach. You know, you look at someone like Big Cri. Yeah. You know what I mean? Who, there's a kind of genius in his method to not only painting this picture of where he is from and what he believes in, but how it's connected to so many other things.

Yeah. Right. And if you sit down with, is he the most lyrical cat? No. Right. So there isn't that excellence that stays here, but there is excellence in his approach and what he does, if that makes any sense. Yeah. I think that's 

[00:51:56] DJ And?: one of the one of the strong aspects of hip hop in the [00:52:00] South Absolutely. Was that do it for yourself.

Build it from the ground. Absolutely. Make it work. And I know I hear a lot of folks that kinda watch, you know, watch documentaries, but I always watch them talk about from up north and say, yo, One thing we respect about 'em, they may not have the best lyrics or anything, but yo, they, they have everything from start to finish.

Absolutely. Straight. Vertical integration. Didn't even know that. Yeah. Yeah. They 

[00:52:22] Napoleon Wells: had the record store right next door. They were like, we're going to do this. Absolutely. 

[00:52:25] DJ And?: Vertical integration. And it's amazing to think about how that has evolved 

[00:52:30] Napoleon Wells: since then until a powerful sense of community and created out of necessity.

Yes. I mean, since you love hip hop, who, who are your top or We have that top five. Yeah. Top five. My top five top. Well, I mean, naturally I have Jay-Z at number one. Mm-hmm. number two, NAS was there for a long time for me, but Nas has fallen maybe out of my top five biggie. I'm gonna hold that maybe number five.

I'm gonna make him my down barrier. Gotcha. What else do I have in my top [00:53:00] five Ks? One? You have to put Chris, you know, the blast Masters and my top five space. Top five? Yeah. Two more. Yeah, two more. Yeah. Let me come back. and I

mean, cause there's, I mean there are, there's so many folks that I consider and then there's individual versus group, and then who I'm affected by. I am a, I'm a huge fan of Little Brother. Oh yeah. And I believe that little brother may be, I mean, in my opinion, and some folks might object maybe the most underappreciated hip hop of I've ever lived.

Right. It's ridiculous. In my top five I might have, in terms of group and I would separate, you know, individual and group. If I was looking at group and building my five out, I would have Outkast and my top five. I would have Tribe Called Quest and my top five, I would've Dayla soul. I would have souls of mischief that would be in consideration.

 But Little Brother might be one for me. I love it. Absolutely. And. In particular, I [00:54:00] think they are so important because of all of the energy and the ideas and the excellence, like the combined. And then five in another way, like if I'm looking at most important fives, you know, you have someone like MF Doom because he refused to, in any way be beholden to this is how rap is supposed to be.

Right? And you, you have someone like that and then you have someone like the Grinch from out west that was like, no, I simply wanna rap this way. And I understand it's gonna be difficult for some folks to process, but it's what I'm going to do. Tupac was, would be probably number one in terms of importance.

Yeah. Right. In my head, I put him in number one in terms of importance of course, but I'm like, dude, can't really rap. Well, no. Yeah, you're 

[00:54:47] DJ And?: right. That's a hard 

[00:54:48] Napoleon Wells: but what's so, it was terribly, it was to so important, you know, in in every way. And then I think as someone like Big Pun, who would probably be. You [00:55:00] can actually, would I have big pun up?

No, I'd have them at my top 10. Black thought might be near my top five. You start, you starting to 

[00:55:07] DJ And?: forget. Good Lord. That is 

[00:55:09] Napoleon Wells: are so many epic. Nick. Nick Grant is someone who is important to me. It's some good ones. Yes. Since I would have trouble, I'd have, I would have to like, I'd have to give you category trouble giving a five.

[00:55:25] DJ And?: Speaking on the, on music. Before I move over to the next question, I might just ask, so recently there was a little bit of tiff on in the social world, the social interwebs mm-hmm. about there's a fellow by the name of DJ Academics uh, and he hosts pot and he hosts little shows and he talks to folks mm-hmm.

and he's always on Twitch and stuff. Mm-hmm. . And he was getting into a little bit of a tiff with older generation foundational hip hop. Right, right. Folks. Calling them dusty due to their ability, due to their inability to floss and show off money and et cetera. Mm-hmm. , because nowadays one of the measures in hiphop, and like you were saying before, is not just [00:56:00] the science of doing it, but the business.

Absolutely. Absolutely. And a lot of young folk don't realize that the ability for them to make the shares and monies that they make now come from that entire group of people. That era of making that foundation for them to have money and success. Mm-hmm. , where, where does your idea fall on? Like, is, is his understanding and his gripe with him?

Do you think it's based on actual. Like, dislike or is it an inability? And this is what I was thinking, the fact, I don't think he has much acceptance from the group, and I think he's kinda, 

[00:56:31] Napoleon Wells: well, he, he doesn't I think that, so it's, it's a little layer. The, the very first issue I have or would explore with what academics said is in and around the psychology of hip hop.

And that has always been consumerism, always true, right? So there's always been a matter of how much money I have, how many women I have, the kind of property I have, look at my jewel. All of that has always been a part of since day one. Psychological power of hip hop. So [00:57:00] that goes, that has remained consistent.

You have to be able to show the money you've made and you show that by showing me what you've accumulated. Mm. So he's talking about demonstrating and showing to others. We in fact wind up be able to be voyeurs and you show us your life in this way. Right. He is consistent with what hip hop has been.

We have to break that psychology. Mm. Right. He is simply echoing what has been for decades now. A part of our psychology as grown as Jay-Z is now, he had his moment with consumerism as grown as Tupac became, he's still very often talked about what his lifestyle allowed him to have. Yes. Right. That, that was always a part of it until folks broke out of it and grew up.

Academics is a part of that continuous community, continuous psychology, continuous mindset. So I don't think we can blame him for that part. Mm-hmm. , we collectively have to break that. But what is difficult for me [00:58:00] to process through is why considering how grown hip hop has become and as mature in parts as it's become, why we don't value our pioneers in the way other forms of music.

Thank you. Right. Yes. You know one of the things that. Cool J said in response to him that I thought was incredibly important was like, dude, nobody worried about what Miles Davis' Bank account looked like . That's the true, yeah. Right. Jet the entire community. I know, but I had clean shoes. Right. They could not, but they couldn't care less about what he actually made.

Made. Yeah. I don't know what he makes and show money. They didn't concern themselves with it. I think we have to value our pioneers for the sake of them being pioneers. Okay. And a part of that then requires that we be a more functional, cohesive community. We're still very divided. Yeah. As a community. The south is still the south.

Yep. It is. New York is still New. York's not in the East coast. It's New York. Can't have West Coast, destroy, can't have any of that. [00:59:00] You in fact have scenes in Baltimore and DC but they're either, they get lost in the overall MOAs of, and I think we would have to have a cohesive community, which then says we're going to honor our forefathers, but we're.

We still, instead of honoring women, MCs, move them fully over into the female LMC category. Right. Very true. And then isolate them here. Yeah. Like we don't have a full cohesive sense of community. We need that to be able to say, okay, you know what? Ello Cool J gets to go out on tour in the same way that the Rolling Stones do.

That's what I don't do. The Rolling Stones are knocking on 80 soon and as soon as they announce six tour dates, tour dates are gonna sell out at the number. Right. And they're going sell out, still lagging them tickets for a grand a piece. Correct. Like it's, yeah. So hip hiphop is still, I think very, it's tied to a lot of its worst and least mature psychology, which we are still trying to grow out of.

Mm-hmm. . And some of that is ego. It, it's even a [01:00:00] large part of it. You know, that there's hubris even more so than ego. Like I have to be what I. So living the words with all of the money that I may accumulated would be best for me not to engage good points. Right. There's a, there's a drill rapper who is in president of Rikers Island right now.

A young, I think he might be 20 by the name of K Flock gang member. Mm-hmm. videos starting to get millions and millions of views. He signs a record deal. He's starting to make plenty of money, but he's still in a space in the Bronx and he is walking down the street. Dude comes out of the barber shop, they're talking shit to each other.

Apparently he pulls out, he shoots him, right? Mm-hmm. , but, and gotta keep it real. And there are, and there are those in his space who are simply willing to justify what happened and what he had done. And that is not just him and his psychology that is said, pop over. You are allowed to. So we have to be sure that we go [01:01:00] about the business of addressing that psychology.

And we have to address the psychology of consumerism, right? Can we simply honor our pioneers and how they built this? Can we establish our halls of fame? Can we establish what our most critical, impactful moments were in who those people were that were in that space? And then keep them lifted up in every possible way.

Like we talk about them the way that rock talks about Motorhead. Yeah. But regardless of what they've sold, what space did they occupy and what did they give us? Yeah. And then what do we do with that? And academics largely, man. We're giving him what he wants, man. Academics is always control, bro. That's my big thing.

I know like if we keep on paying academics attention, you know, he moved in from a space where he was like, those who were doing hiphop, those who were in hiphop never wanted me. Yeah. So he's like, I'm gonna fuck with all of you every chance I get. Yeah. Right. And if you keep paying me at, and who he represents wants to come with him, right?

Yeah. Right. They're like, no, they don't accept us, so we're gonna throw these rocks from the space that we're in. And question, do you I always hear this too, there's two things, [01:02:00] and I'll stop belaboring the point, but I know in hip hop they always say it's a young man's sport. Sure. And then also with hip hop, the, the youth, they are gonna be the for forefront in pushing in the new information, the new way of doing things.

[01:02:16] DJ And?: Sure. And that's a positive thing because you need it to continue to evolve and et cetera, but mm-hmm. I know with other genres, they move forward, but they still revere the elders. 

[01:02:26] Napoleon Wells: Correct. And. It's the reverence that is missing because we tell ourselves it's a young man's sport, but we don't support our elders when they get busy on the court.

You know what I'm saying? Oh, like Jay-Z is showing us how elders get busy. Yeah. And so what we have to do is to then say, man, I don't have to simply celebrate one aspect of hip hop and looking at graffiti art and what are the graphs doing and what's are those folks doing now and what were they doing then?

Am I looking at the art of DJing and what is happening in that space and what those folks are doing? If, if we want to embrace overall [01:03:00] hip hop, we simply have to, but we have to put our effort and our will and even money behind it. 

[01:03:05] DJ And?: And that's the, I'm saying full culture from the break, boys and all of it, every 

[01:03:08] Napoleon Wells: people, every, every , everything that we do.

I was. Should I? Yeah, I will. Let's do it. Yeah. There was this show that Preach, organized, preach Jacobs for those. Man, listen, y'all listen to this man, friend of the show. He's been on here, we've been on his class. Big, big friend of the show, man, like, you know, that's my, my Beige Lightskin brother and I'm Dark Page.

So , he organizes this show a few years back, man, where he brings Sky Zoo down now Sky Zoo is very dope. Yeah. You know, sky Zoo gets like, preach really broke his back to put this show together. And I can recall being there and there were, I, I expected before I was walking in for it to be wall to wall and there were a lot of folks, but I came in, it was kind of like, nah man, I love everything that this brother did to make this happen.

And I'm a little disappointed that we didn't have the [01:04:00] kind of energy that folks were saying they wanted. Cause there's the kind of talk where folks want to just in hip hop in general, I wanna see more of it. I wanna see it everywhere. I wanna see it grow. , but just like show up, like in therapy there's the work.

I have to show up and support it. Here is someone who has completely broken what we do regularly, right here in Columbia. You're right, you're Here's a high end show. Yeah. With a high end artist and the energies behind it. All you have to do is be there and be there and engage. Like completely. Bring the heavens down, shake this building.

And the folks who were there were doing their damnest, but I'm like, We needed to have 1000 times more energy in the city behind. I see what you're saying. The city needed to be talking about that in the same way, and I'm not gonna go away from it. I'm gonna say it again, man. My expectation is any of you.

Who are listening to this, especially if you are the Carolina's, but outside of it, like the Hilltop Love is your podcast. Mm-hmm. , these are members of your community. You should be sharing this shit everywhere. Yeah. [01:05:00] You should be having facts, thought based conversations about the podcast and what the podcast brings.

Elevate the podcast in that space. If the Carolinas have something to say, it has to be the community that says it. We have to create our greatness and push our greatness forward. Mm-hmm. . Right, right, 

[01:05:18] DJ And?: right. Now, moving along, I know you're known for your extensive lectures about diversity, prejudice, privilege, race, and educational success of minorities.

Yes, sir. And in 2015, your period in TEDx Talk, discussing a cure for racism. Mm-hmm. could you tell us a little bit more about your experience with Ted and doing I guess he, I hate to call it like the lecture circuit, but the lecture circuit and how that has changed your life 

[01:05:40] Napoleon Wells: for the better. It was a, it was a bit of a before and after experience.

I'll tell you the truth, man. Like, you know, I had been lecturing a lot before. Like I had a pretty sound reputation, which is what, you know, led to Ted taking a look at me. Right. And you do what Ted talk, and it's [01:06:00] interesting because with Ted you're performing for the world to see Yeah. There are those who might be regionally or nationally aware of you perform a TED talk and then it becomes another matter.

Yeah. But then it becomes property of the world. Yeah. So you might have been having conversations with a lot of people who agree with you. Yeah. But you perform a TED Talk and now your opponents will show up and they'll show up, they can study negative you. And I think the most interesting point for me was after it took me probably two years to watch.

I was like, br two years later I disagreed with a couple of my Wow. Growing though. That's why I put that follow up question in there. No, man, it one of the ways in which it grew me was, I think, and improved, I would say, my life as a thinker, intellectual as in someone who engages with his community and the overall community and around notions of advocacy [01:07:00] and growth and change.

Really, I think it allowed me to have a broad conversation with a lot more people, even opponents who may have felt the way, you know, I got a couple of pieces of hate mail Really? And I can recall paper. Paper, yeah. And I can recall, I mean, it was the digital, which was interesting, but you know, when somebody decides to stop and write a letter, send it to your job, you know, they're like I want him to see this.

Yeah. It was a moment where, you know, I had. An older brother just kind of sit me down and he was like, that's how you know you've arrived. Yes. At that point where you have that happen. Right. You know, you, for me, what was important was to be able to say, you know, as a psychologist and using psychology, man, I can fight any fight that is out there.

You know, if I help people to understand and to look at something like racism in supremacy and be willing to say, this person hasn't necessarily chosen to be this. A part of what impacts a number of [01:08:00] conservatives is if you look at psychology, you become a person who's a hurt person, who hurts people.

Chances are your environment some sort of abuse. Your family, they harmed you in some way. How is this person raised and what is this person gaining from being who they are? What information do they feed themselves and good points can I in some way engage them so that they, they have a healthier means of gathering information and why are they protecting themselves right?

From gaining this information? What does supremacy allow them to do and feel? What does racism do for them? Do they know that they are being racist? Very often they do, but they don't always understand them. Mechanism that move them to be motivated to be in that space and to become that kind of monster.

And they don't know themselves to be, but they're, it allowed me to have that very broad conversation and to have it rapidly. A number of people into, I think, get a message across that was necessary. There is a psychology to it there, and there's a psychology to someone who says, every day I'm gonna spend hours watching Fox News.

Yes. And, and I'm going to pull in as much this information as I can. I feel [01:09:00] unsafe. I feel my position as threaten. Someone's telling me that I don't feel as profound and powerful as I once did. I'm saying all lives matter, even though Black Lives Matter isn't saying that other lives. Like gathering all of this information and why.

Right. So that the piece for me, you 

[01:09:14] DJ And?: feel like 

[01:09:15] Napoleon Wells: you're not like, like you wanna feel like you assumptions were correct. It's like a reassuring right, that you're, yeah. I 

[01:09:22] DJ And?: don't know. But it's 

[01:09:23] Napoleon Wells: an active the, for a number of other conversations to be pulled into place. You know? Cause I had different people from different segments, you know, say, well come and engage with us in this conversation, man.

You know? Black men say, enough about the kind of misogyny and misogynoir that exists, and can you engage there? And I had to examine myself and say, what is the psychology that pushes us into that spot? And then when you in fact have black children who engage with their world in a way that they do, what psychologically drives it, what psychologically drives black women in our families to engage in the ways that [01:10:00] they do?

I understand you've been painted in this way, but what's behind it? I think it opened up a number of conversations and it allowed me in some way to say, Hey man, there's a bunch of people who are doing this work, have been doing it before me. And I will tell you that was something I wasn't fully prepared for was the number of people who were intellectual parents and grandparents of mine who.

To greater or lesser degrees became somewhat envious. Wow. In that way. And we're just like, no man, this was something that I've been building for a while. Why did they choose you? And it's like, you know, I'm nice with it. You know, sometimes, sometimes it's in the same way we have, while you have someone like academics, you have someone like Method Man who questioned a couple years ago.

It's like, how are these young rappers making this money? I don't get Yeah. Your approach is different. It's different. Yeah. The way you broke it down, like I watched it, I'm like, it was different. I can understand everything he's talking about in, sometimes it's a matter of being a right instrument [01:11:00] for the right time, you know?

But you're a vessel. Looking back to New York hip hop, you know, someone like NAS was not necessarily gonna reach all of the brothers in Mechanicsville, Georgia. Good point. You know, spitting the way that he was Spit point. Taking someone from Mechanicsville to be like, nah, man, you know, I'm going to speak about your direct experience.

Mm-hmm. . And so sometimes movements, they become a matter of each community activating itself. Mm-hmm. based on what that community needs, individual moving forward individually. I mean, linking all of it up. Yeah. But no, it's putting me in a good spot. I think it's a part of why I push so much toward like Carolina, like, yo, let's go get after it.

You know what I'm saying? I see that. I see that. Yeah. I don't get to work as much here as I would like. Right. Only. USC will give me a call and they're like, we're doing this program and you know, we have $1,500 to do it. Can you do it nigga, my number is turned. Don't do that. Yeah. And you know that. You see me working?

Mm-hmm. , right? So these folks from over here, no, I'm going over here. I wanna be here. Like, don't call me with that and don't call [01:12:00] anybody who is in this space. Listen, and I'm, say it again. I didn't do that here. Whoever it is in this state, whoever is working in this state, whether it be the arts, whether it be professionals, man, like South Carolina, let's get after it.

Mm-hmm. , you know what I'm saying? Like, let's really push the notion of community and greatness for one another. And push energy into each other, man, let's do that as much. You know, let's, let's be less humble, man. Nah, I, no, no, nah. Let's, let's be, I feel like we're really waiting for somebody to be like, we're alright man.

Like we are great as is on our own, in our own voice, man, but we gotta prove that we got, we gotta push that for ourselves, man. I'm sick of waiting. I truly am just sick of it. 

[01:12:40] DJ And?: No, that's a good point because like you said and it goes with Fat Joe saying this is for real. Yesterday's price is not today's 

[01:12:48] Napoleon Wells: price.

No, no, no, no. And you have to show and ask you, and I think we, in certain instances, it isn't even, it's not only the number, but the way in which [01:13:00] I don't know what you God's streaming numbers are in terms of who listens. I know that. I know that I want for everybody. Who is in any way connected to anyone who listens to this program to hear the program?

Yeah. Like that's what I want to get at because I'm thinking about where a podcast like this can push your energy. Mm-hmm. . Gotcha. As me and bro were talking about earlier when I came in, you know, like what you can create the kind of community you can create, the kind of projects you can create if everyone in the state gets on board, joined in you some way, so we aren't isolated in our efforts.

We can really pull those efforts and you can be a process leader. Mm-hmm. in this way. Mm-hmm. . But it starts with a flagship. Yeah. And then everyone is built around that into a fleet. And if the flagship is the hilltop, then good work. But let's make it that. Cause you do already, so let's push effort into it.

Gotcha. You know what I'm saying? When it comes to shit starters, psychologists, that's me. Put your effort into me , like [01:14:00] I'm your flagship already. Look at whoever it may be, any and everybody that's building, anyone that's been on this program, push. Push effort into 'em, you know, push willing into 'em, man.

That's 

[01:14:10] DJ And?: what I like to hear, man. And I know we're about to get ready to wrap up. Mm-hmm. but I must ask this real quick question. What do you enjoy most about lectures? Just the idea? Yeah. What, what's, what's, what do you, cause you have to get something out of it. 

[01:14:22] Napoleon Wells: Yeah. I think what I probably enjoy most is kind of seeing people engage with information that may be new to them.

Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. and them, not necessarily learning, but processing Washington. So you're a process person. Oh, absolutely. He's a all process person now. Like, process is necessary because it allows you to revisit, you're never really fit. Yeah. But if you have processing place, you can always improve it. Yep. You can always evolve it, go back and edit, reevaluate.

So that's your point to me. Yeah. So I. Seeing people engage and very often become inspired in their own work. Mm-hmm. and a lecture is sound man. I think what [01:15:00] lectures allow for me to do separate from the therapeutic work that I, I mean, I have a very specific population I work with therapeutic, you know, I mean, I work with combat veterans.

Oh, okay. 

[01:15:10] DJ And?: We need to talk, talk, say 

[01:15:12] Napoleon Wells: No seriously. Sure. But you know, there's, there's, there's that piece. When I get out into different types of communities and community spaces, and we have lectures that we are engaging in, what we're sharing in very often is them giving me energy. And me trying to give that back Gotcha.

In some way. So it's not necessarily teaching, but sharing mm-hmm. in that way. And I love the energy that comes from it for me. Like, I'm not a rapper. I'm not a singer. I'm never going to, well, I shouldn't say it. Maybe, probably won't, maybe anyone in a concert. But for me, a lectures a kind of concert. It's a, it's a process and thought concert where if I can give pe it's a part of why I love a brother, like Dr.

Christopher Emden. If you get a chance, look at everything Christopher Emden does, he's in education, but the brother really talks about life. Like as soon as he [01:16:00] breathes on a mic and starts getting busy talking to people about how they see themselves as thinkers. Right. How they see themselves engaging information that they're learning.

I'm like, God damn that let, so one of the, the things that I engage with in process is these notions that exist outside of us that I want for people to have in their lives. Right? So there's this belief that is out there. Mythologically that genius visits all of us at some point in our life. Mm-hmm. . Right?

And what you do with it at the time where it visits you is going to determine whether or not you become fully realized in that moment. But then you always have these other moments to be fully realized. But genius is gonna visit you and you're gonna feel inspired. And maybe you don't have the energy to do something with it, but it's gonna come to you.

And if you do something with it, it might come to you more than once, but it's never gonna stay with you forever. Mm-hmm. . Right? But the idea is that it's going to be there with you for some period of time. In other words, we all have the potential to be great in that way. [01:17:00] So what's going to allow us to build toward that great and well space?

And sometimes it's a matter of just, man, how do I think about myself? Right? Mm-hmm. , how do you feel about yourself? What I know about myself? For me, you know what I'm saying? You know I'm a poor black kid from the Bronx. And in the spaces where I was trying to get to, my notion, my understanding was, man, like fuck it.

Just fight hard. Cause it's what you do . Yeah. So being in graduate school, man, and I say this to anyone who's moving through that process where you feel like the process is against you, whatever the process is, right? So I came in and I was a graduate of a state university and most of the other students in the program were from, I just tell you the truth.

Mm-hmm. , we have to introduce ourselves on the very first day, and they're running down these schools, man, you know, in particular Princeton, Penn. Cornell, shout out to Courtney Bay , but they're running down all these schools that they're from and I'm like, damn man. You know, my name's Napoleon Wells, I'm last to introduce, what [01:18:00] am I supposed to say?

Right? Cause I'm about about, I mean, last, last name. But the idea that I brought with me and I had in place was like, nah man, I just plain wanted more than they do. This is a yard. Yeah, we're And we're all dogs of a combat. There's only this one piece of meat. Yeah. And they've been better groom. They're pure bread, but I simply have been hungrier for longer.

Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. , they're that another scar does what? You know what I mean? So I'm willing to, are you willing to bite me and ruin your teeth to get that meat? Cuz I'm willing to, is that kind of teeth reminds me, 

[01:18:41] DJ And?: right? That's what, 

[01:18:42] Napoleon Wells: yeah. You just willing, so is there, is there the, for me, there was the kind of understanding that I'm operating without a net.

It's many I saw. Yeah. Without a, so if I lose, who cares? Who cares? Right. I'll do something else. Yep. Where from many of them, that was their identity. They've always succeeded and they've always [01:19:00] won. But I was just in my head like, dude, I'm just so much better than you. Yeah. Because of how much I'm willing to.

To get after it. Your, your ability to risk. Correct. And, and to then believe, but to believe in myself as I actually am not the finished product, but who am I fully in this moment? In that moment? Yeah. Right. In this moment. Who am I in this moment? What's the growth in this moment and how do I evolve past it?

That's for another day. Right. Wow. Well you have to do this again, yeah's. Yes, we definitely will. We'll get together man. Listen, I fully believe in everything that you folks are doing. I appreciate you having me here with you. Do you have any upcoming projects we can look out for? I do. I'm working on finishing up my own project.

Most of what you will read and you will go read what I've written, any of the short stories, most of those are short stories that have been published in other books. Do I have a name for it? No, I'm working on two different names right now. One of them is oi. That is it. The other one is going to be an English version, but I really like the [01:20:00] oi.

I may finish with that one cuz tonight really describes the tone of the book, but it's black speculative fiction. I hope to have it finished near my birthday, which will be in January. I have. Where I am right now, better than half of it written. Wow. The problem is I keep expanding it as I do with the number of my stories, but you can find what I do just about everywhere.

 Look up Napoleon Wells. A Blade in a God's Hand is one of my stories. The Cjt I Morrow and a bullet from a God's gun. Mm-hmm. . You can find those in a couple of anthology. Cyber funk anthology. The Space Funk Anthology is coming up soon, and I'm planning to contribute to that one as well. So you'll see one short story there.

Okay. Before the big book drops with regard to my work. If you aren't a veteran, don't call me . Don't, don't call me or look for me. But I work with the Department of Veterans Affairs at the Columbia Vet Center. If you are a veteran and you listen to this, and this is not a joke this is, well, we've [01:21:00] passed suicide prevention month now, but what I want to let you know is whatever you're struggling with, whatever difficulty you're having, , we're doing the work.

And I can understand if you're reluctant to come in, if you've had difficult experiences with the VA in the past. We are a slightly different entity. We focus entirely on counseling service. All of us, were in that space. Do the counseling work. If you want to talk to us, need to talk to us. Even if you come in and talk to us, just once, do so.

 If you don't mind, I'm gonna drop the number to our veteran C Community. 8 0 3 7 6 5 9 9 4 4. Its the Columbia Vet Center. We're right downtown on Richland Street. If you put us in a little Google machine, it'll bring you over to us. You can walk in and see us. You can call us. You can ask for me by name.

 Monday through Friday, 8:00 AM to four 30. We're around. Okay. And what about your social media? Do I know my social media information? Oh, Napoleon, the blurred psychologist on ig me up. That's great. Look me up. My name on Napoleon Wells. Everywhere else you will find me. [01:22:00] I tend to generally post pretty often.

I post about the projects that I'm working on. Give a shout out to all of the publishers that I work with. I hear from a number of publishers. If you're listening at all, don't reach out to me. . Don't reach out to me. There's a process for it. Don't reach out to y'all. Ain't call my people. Y'all ain't the right things.

Don't reach out to me. Now. We're working right now. We have you on the show again, we'll talk again. Certainly. And I think most importantly everything I said, and I'm going to say it again, I wanna see ambassadors and I wanna see power, and I wanna see self-contained greatness in our states of North and South Carolina.

You're listening to the Hilltop Glove Podcast. It needs to be everywhere you are. So I'm asking that you continue to, to make it a priority. To be sure that everyone who is around you is doing the same. Play this thing everywhere, man. We are the creators of our greatness space. So do so, man. Go out and get p Jacobs, get these folks.

The Hilltop Glove podcast. Go get me Dr. Napoleon Wells. I know Dr. Shari Dade has been on this. So go get everyday psychology[01:23:00] Deonte management with her folks going to get them. Literally anybody who has been on a episode, any episode of these podcast, podcast, go get those and, and listen closely. All the folks who have been on the podcast, man, we need to come together, festival style, and let's create some good shit.

We gotta come, let's make this thing happen. Invite now. Yo Carolina, first Man, Carolina, bottom line, Carolina first. I'm gonna say that and I want that to become a thing. So Carolina first we gonna have that. 

[01:23:29] DJ And?: Excellent. Excellent. Well, that wraps it up pretty well for today. I want to thank everybody for listening to the Hilltop Glove podcast from DJ and what Tama a Mike Pace.

Skip Dr. Napoleon Wells, you, y'all have a blessed one. Be easy out there to tell everybody around that you love him. Bye. Peace.