Introducing Kanish Harmon’s Journey;

SPEAKER_04 1:45

Welcome back to the Hilltop Glove Podcast. Today we have the immense pleasure of speaking with the vibrant and multifaceted artist Kanish Harman. Kanish's journey began at the Charleston County School of the Arts. After earning her BA at Claflin University and an MFA at Howard University, she became an art educator. We'll start back at the top. We'll wait for this rumble to go by. Alright. Welcome back to the Hilltop Glove Podcast. Today we have the immense pleasure of speaking with the vibrant and multifaceted artist Kanish Harmon. Kanesha's journey began at the Charleston County School of the Arts. After earning her BA at Claflin University and an MFA at Howard University, she became an art educator, teaching from the sixth grade up to the collegiate level at Morgan State University. Kanisha's artistic practice is a rich tapestry that spans oil painting, graphite, procreate, and large-scale murals. Her work is a powerful amplification of under-represented voices, sparking critical conversations about race, identity, and resilience. Through her art, she masterfully blends rich colors and intricate details with storytelling that is both beautifully unsettling and profoundly human. Kanish invites viewers to sit with discomfort, reflect on their own perspectives, and recognize the strength of often overlooked communities. Drawing inspiration from her heritage and lived experiences, Kanish views art as a formidable tool for change. Her work challenges silence while celebrating resilience. Beyond her studio practice, she has also served as an art educator, sharing her passion for creativity with the next generation. Kanish's impressive career includes residencies with the city of North Charleston and Redux Contemporary Art Center. She has participated in invitational exhibitions at Public Works Art Center and engaged in a live painting collaboration with Beeple Studios. Her work has been showcased both nationally and internationally, including group exhibitions at the Oculus in New York City, London Tower Bridge, and across New Jersey, California, Oregon, and North Carolina. Additionally, she has held a solo show in Michigan. Kenish holds a BA in studio art from Claflin University, obviously, as we said earlier, and an MFA from Howard University. Stay tuned as we explore her artistic mind. How are you doing today, sis lady? I'm good. Awesome, awesome. We greatly appreciate having you as a guest today on the Hilltop Glove podcast. I will say, man, the weather today is not what it was yesterday. This is like um Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hot, like it is slip-on, flip all. Feels beautiful yesterday. Very much 87 degrees, sunny, great humidity, not much, much, not much bugs out, and then today it's downpour.

SPEAKER_00 5:11

Open my car door, fine. By the time I got my paintings to the car, it's pouring. I'm just like, Lord, why?

SPEAKER_04 5:17

And now I feel bad. Obviously, we have one of the paintings behind us. Um, beautiful art in the room with us right now. And I feel bad. Badly. It would be badly.

SPEAKER_00 5:27

First time I've had to weather the elements. So the art is resilient as well. It's fine.

SPEAKER_04 5:32

Awesome, awesome, awesome. So um, as we begin any of our uh interviews, whenever we speak with anybody, the most important things is for our audience to get an understanding of who you are and where you come from. So if you could just speak to us briefly about who or what inspired you growing up, and the question we always like to ask, do you have any siblings?

Curiosity, Rebellion, And Early Influences;

SPEAKER_00 5:53

Um, I will start with I guess the siblings first and then go back. Um, I do have siblings. I have two older siblings. I have a brother and a sister. My sister's the oldest, and my brother is the middle child, so I always tell my parents I completed the family, the youngest, and everything. So we're all about like three and a half to four years apart. So I grew up with them, clear millennial family, yeah, in the suburbs and everything. So that was a fun experience growing up with them. Um my parents are both military, so there's a lot of structure. They met in the army. So Wow.

SPEAKER_04 6:31

Where at? Like which which base or or where were they stationed?

SPEAKER_00 6:34

Here. Uh my mom's from Miami, my dad is from Hollywood, South Carolina. I guess there's uh they did their training here in South Carolina. Okay. So they traveled all around. Um, me and my siblings were all born in different places, different areas. I was born in Germany, so loved that for me. I don't remember any of it. My siblings do, but it was pretty from the pictures. I think I enjoyed myself. Um, so there's a a lot of travel in that, and then um also they're both ministers, so a lot of structure. Grew up with my with my faith, grew up with the military. I love the military attire, but I decided from a very early age, it's not for me. I asked too many questions. I was like, I'm you cannot follow the recent. Why do we have to do this? I don't understand it. We are getting in trouble. The whole platoon is getting in trouble. So I think from an early age, no, we can't do the military. But I appreciate what it instilled and what it instilled for me and my siblings. Um, I also got my siblings in trouble a lot because I was still that person who was always asking why for everything. Um, rebel with the cause. Like, I was like, I was about to say, but there was something behind the question, right? I will do I'm a goodie two shoes. I'm going to do everything. I was always going to do all the rules, but if a rule didn't make sense, I was gonna ask questions. Okay. And that's still how no blind, no blind follower. Like, no, I'm not a blind follower. Like, I need no, that has to make sense to me. Please explain that. Like, and if it makes sense, say, okay, I got you. And if it doesn't, I'm probably apt to just say it just as bluntly, just like that. Like, no, that's stupid. That doesn't make any sense. I'm not doing that.

SPEAKER_04 8:07

You're not angry at it. I'm not angry in this day and age, that's a great thing to have.

SPEAKER_00 8:11

Yeah, but I think I also got to do that because I was the youngest. I was not the guinea pig. I got to watch everybody else and be like, ooh, let me not do that. So I I learned a lot that way. Um, my brother and I got into a lot of shenanigans, but I think being the youngest and growing up with that sibling shelter and my parents' shelter, and um just a whole lot of love, a lot of like I still I live down the street from my parents now. Like, who would have thought that I would buy a house on the same street?

SPEAKER_04 8:42

Wait, wait, wait, so you grew up on the street, you live on the street now?

SPEAKER_00 8:45

Yeah, moved away, did all that, came back, uh, got married, everything, and me and my husband were like, we like this neighborhood. And I'm like, You sure? Like, we're close to my parents, and he's like, Yeah, your parents are dope. So we all the same street. I dropped my dog off to my parents every morning before work. So, yeah, so I'm like 12 houses down. So it's it's been very close knit. So that I honestly feel like helped me to become more of who I am, even as an artist, because they gave me the freedom to be myself. Like I didn't have parents who were just like, You sure you don't want to do something that makes more money, or this that and the third. They're like, Oh, you want to be an artist? Okay, you want some sketchbooks, you want, you know, some paints? Like they they really pushed it. Like, my dad is still my biggest supporter alongside my husband. Like, I'll just get a random Cash App or Venmo to this day, and I'm just like, and it'll I'll and it'll have like a note like for the prints and everything. I'm just like, Dad, are you talking to somebody? Yeah, I sold your painting to somebody in Costco, and I'm just like, who what why are you just talking to random people?

SPEAKER_04 9:49

Yo, he's sell he's out here selling and moving your work.

SPEAKER_00 9:52

Yes, he does. So I'll pop people know who I am before I ever know who they are. It's like I've seen this painting before. Yeah, I was in Subway. I'm like, I have not been in Subway.

SPEAKER_04 10:03

Like, I'm out here busy in the streets. He said, I'm heavy out of here. I'm pumping this artwork. You're gonna get some of it. That's dope. That is so dope.

SPEAKER_00 10:12

A lot of support. So yeah, they allowed me to be me. They allowed me to be the rebel with the cause that I am. Um, that's also a lot of what helped with my inspiration as well. Because I was a big Aaron Magruder fan growing up. Like, yeah, want him to come back from the shadows. Because I'm just like, come back from the shadows, because I know you have so much to say about what's going on.

SPEAKER_04 10:34

Do you think he's like, well, I tried to tell y'all and y'all ain't want to listen?

SPEAKER_00 10:38

Listen, he we didn't want to listen. Probably didn't. He probably said we don't deserve him. Yeah. But and it's a different time now, so I feel like people would be more upset with his work now where they shouldn't. But I probably uh have a lot of his comics, like his original comic strips and whatnot. Um, I love that he was an African American studies major. Good point, good point.

SPEAKER_04 11:00

His his understanding of the topics was was was in depth.

Practice, Discipline, And The Educator Mindset;

SPEAKER_00 11:03

Like I love the work. Like I'm like his artwork was so profound. It's like it stood out. I loved his artwork, but at the same time, I'm like, this is smart artwork. And it's it wasn't just pretty pictures, which I had an issue with, because growing up, the school I went to was great school. I got a lot of foundation there. But it I felt like I wanted to say more than I can paint somebody's portrait or I can, you know, recreate a Rembrandt or things like that. His work was.

SPEAKER_04 11:34

What you doing recreating Rembrandts? Listen, it's all right. We can talk about that later. We see something selling ain't supposed to be out there selling, okay.

SPEAKER_00 11:42

I did what I was supposed to do as a kid. Okay. And then now asked too many questions. So I'm like, I felt like his his work, his work really helped me with that. And I think um, shoot, there's literally an entire story behind that. But Aaron Magruder is a huge inspiration for like a lot of the work that I have right now. Man, I don't even have an Instagram or anything. I've been trying to find out.

SPEAKER_04 12:03

No, isn't that I and I I will say that that's what makes that's what makes the cachet so serious. It's it's at it the the value, he is not exposed at all. And but the work that he did leave behind, what people can't find from it, it's as if he was he was so ahead of the time. He's such a a quote unquote, as people would say, a prophet, in the sense that he must have he understood what was happening in the world and its effects on us, and he told us it and the commentary was so good because it was funny. You know, it's always funny. Chef's guess, pretty much, but it would dig where it was supposed to dig. And to be able to do that with style and it look good. Mike, I mean, he'd speak on this mic because Mike, he's actually, he does, I don't do any visual art. I like looking at it. But he could speak on it like that because you're right, you're correct, you're correct. But I always thought that it was I always loved his his work. Um I used to I rem I remember making sure that I would try to get I think it was in the post, he was in the Washington Post. Because the thing was his because you know you collected his clips. His clips weren't in everything, and I remember there was a there was a point in time when they started pulling his clips out of certain papers, and being in Columbia, South Carolina, um they used to carry some of the clips, and then after a while they took them out. So you had to go and find you had to go get the post to get his clips, and they were placed and I was like, why did they do it? And then I eventually understood because he was being very provocative.

SPEAKER_00 13:32

Yeah, yeah, or more provocative than what they were used to or what they wanted and everything because it was he didn't lie.

SPEAKER_04 13:40

No, he didn't. There's no way you you he was never sued. I remember I had a history teacher that would tell me that she was like, You you have you have folks that write or produce material, especially creatives, and one thing she told me was that like you you don't get don't get upset or in arms about things. She said, one thing you always look for is you always follow the money, you always affect people's pockets because that's what they were that's what they respond to. But if someone says something and nobody sues them, that tells you a lot. Because you can sue for anything except the truth. Exactly. So remember any anybody, I'm just a disclaimer. If you got friends, family out there, people, etc., hear stuff being so said, etc. If they they said that they don't like what these people said and nobody sued them.

SPEAKER_00 14:27

There's your answer, really. There's your answer.

SPEAKER_04 14:29

All right, so as an artist, uh, and and by the way, Tamaya Allen, who's not here with us today, she she puts these questions together. She does a magnificent job of putting these questions together and making sure that they flow well and that they make sense with who we're talking about or talking to. And so obviously, this question I think is very important. Um, can you explain the importance of creating consistent consistently as an artist in order to refine and perfect your craft?

SPEAKER_00 15:00

I'm gonna make me put my educator hat on. Do it, do it. Um we are not there's no perfect being. Like there's nobody who just has like nothing else to learn. Even if you're a child prodigy or whatnot, there's still a lot that you have to learn. And I look at my work from high school and it was good. But the work that I did in college was much better. And the work that I did much later was much better. The work that I look at from a year or two ago, there are times where I'm like my eyes twitching, like, oh, that shading is wrong. My eyes twitching. It was like, ugh, okay, but it was still good. It's like I'm not going to say that the work isn't good or that you can't have talent or skill. But even raw talent or raw skill still has to be cultivated. Like, I feel like God gives us gifts and you have to use those gifts. Like, otherwise, he can be like, all right, bet, give it back. Like, he can take those gifts away from you. So I I don't want my gifts taken from me. So not only do I intend to use it in various ways that you know helps the people, helps his glory, helps all of that, but also like that means I have to, I'm not so haughty to think that I can just drop and do it at any point in time and it's going to be great and it's going to be fantastic. Like, you have to steward things. So I'm not gonna be, I'm not gonna stay in shape if I just decide that I'm gonna work out when I feel like it. Like I might be somewhat healthy, but I'm not gonna be as healthy as I should be. Or I'm not going to, I'm gonna be really hungry and really starving if I just decide to eat occasionally. Like, no, you have to do that consistently.

SPEAKER_04 16:38

Like, so my wife tells me that she says, Omar, you actually have to eat food to not be hungry. Yeah, I don't like eating all my meals. Food disagrees with me sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 16:46

I mean, say as I say as do as I say and not as I do, because Lord knows I skipped in on lunch. Oh it's okay, it's okay because it's made. It's made, it's okay when I get home. But it's made. But that the point is to still like I still believe that you have to practice. And that's that's I'm putting on my teacher hat. I tell them, like, oh, you have to draw. And I give them like drawing prompts outside of class because I'm like, if you just draw during my class, you're not gonna get that good. So you're complaining that you give art homework? I give art homework.

SPEAKER_03 17:13

No, but it's the best homework. It's the best homework.

SPEAKER_00 17:18

And it's not like, oh, I check it every day, like you have until the end of the quarter to get these prompts done. So however you want to do it, it's however you want to do it. It's more like I guess I use my college years teaching and put it in there, like, this is in the syllabus, and this is when it's gonna be due. And just make sure it gets done.

SPEAKER_04 17:33

You know well in advance.

SPEAKER_00 17:34

Yeah, but the practice is there, like I still have to practice, and I can tell when I have not been practicing as much because then you meet people and you see their work, you're just like I need to get back to the studio. I need to get back in the studio and everything's a push. It's a push.

Finding A Voice: From Realism To Comics;

SPEAKER_04 17:50

Now, now, do you do you believe that with your background, and we were talking obviously about the um military's uh role in your upbringing and order, and especially even with religion, with church, with order, and and having things have a a strong foundation. Do you think that was part of it, or do you think this is just something like as an athlete would, I need to make sure I'm staying in shape and ready to go?

SPEAKER_00 18:17

Um, I don't know if the the order and structure for the military uh influences me feeling like I need to practice more. I think it influences the way I go about it, because I have everything on a calendar, everything. I have to have things written out, structured and organized. Like I am an oxymoron artist. I am very free-flowy, but at the same time I'm very methodical as well. Um but it's I would say more so my faith definitely influences the practice because I I I do feel like it's God-given gift and God-given talent. I feel like you have talent and I feel like you have a gifting, and talents can be grown. Like you can I can develop a talent for juggling if I practice well enough and everything.

SPEAKER_01 18:58

So I can figure it out.

SPEAKER_00 18:59

But it may not be something I'm good. And then you have some people who you just stole them something for the first time and they're juggling like it's nobody's business, and you're looking like, how in the world? But and you can be good, but they could be amazing with those gifts and with those practices. So for me personally, I eat, sleep, breathe, drink, think art. Like I remember six years old, everybody's career fair. It's like, I want to be an astronaut, I want to be a firefighter, and it's like, I wanna be an artist. Like, what's your backup plan? I don't have one. Oh, you a screen. And they're just like, um, you should have like a backup plan. I'm just like, no, screw you. Like this is what I'm doing. So it's I have to, like, and if that's if that's gonna be the goal, if you're gonna be that steadfast and that adamant about it, you gotta make sure you practice. Like, I plan on like transitioning to doing this full time, so yeah, I better be practicing at it for sure.

SPEAKER_04 19:55

And so, how do you, and I'm gonna get to a question on on your art style as well, but you're treating it, and this is interesting to say, obviously, as an educator as well, it's a little different, but you're making sure to treat this as a serious endeavor in a sense of work, like a job.

SPEAKER_00 20:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 20:17

All right, there we go. That's our thread. That's our thread for the day. All right, there we go. We found our thread. So we we spoke to three unique artists today, which is crazy. And everybody does a form of medium. The one thing that we we've understood from everybody that we talked to, and this is interesting to hearing it from you too, is that you're you're treating this as if it's a a full action job, and no one's forcing you to do that, correct?

SPEAKER_00 20:37

No, this is this is what I feel, this is how it is. It's just like I've always been the rebellious one. Like, I can't, I can't get up and just work a desk job every day and and be okay with it and just like retire from that. Like, no shade to people who can do that, but I'm just like, this ain't it. Like, I gotta I gotta love what I do. Like, life is too short to be doing something just for a paycheck. Like, if I'm gonna get a paycheck, I'm gonna at least enjoy to a certain extent my paycheck. It's still work, like trust and believe, it's still work. Just research, get the paint, like mural jobs, like the way that my back is killing me sometimes after certain works like that. Like, it's still work.

SPEAKER_04 21:17

Labor, yeah, yeah. And so, in enjoying that, um, obviously, you have a style that comes with your art, as we can see here. You said we had three different areas of work here. Um, how has your style and approach changed throughout your development as an artist?

Mediums, Workflow, And Balance;

SPEAKER_00 21:35

I think the biggest shift that kind of helped to where I'm at right now would have happened in graduate school um when I was at Howard University. So I've always been technically good, and I say technically good because I can do the shading and the drawing and all those stuff. So I learned all the techniques. But I was almost trying to pigeonhole myself into like making sure I do realism and making sure I do things a certain way, but I grew up doing comics. Like I had my own comic series as if there's that Aaron McRoot or not. I grew up doing comics and making my own comics. My first comic, um, I would do unsolicited comics, honestly. Like I made a comic, an entire newspaper that was centered around comics in the fifth grade and just started passing it out to my classmates, and I would just give it to my um teacher that's like, here, this is for the class. Can you make copies? And everything. And she did, and she was like, Okay, so she would make comics was like, because I would have little sections like this is the homework for this week, and this is like a whole newspaper that because I was just that didn't even think that I should ask permission for this. She's like, here's for this class, can you make copies? So it is by sixth grade, like by the time I got to my high my middle and high school, Charleston County School of the Arts, I had made a comic that I called Lil Churn. So Lil Churn. It was called Lil Churn, and I made every ethnicity and everything, just kind of did the life and times of me and my friends and their peers and whatnot in South Carolina. So I still have pictures and everything of that. And eventually I stopped doing comics because I was told that there was no future in comics. I stopped doing my comics. You know, went to college and wasn't really doing anything then. Went to grad school, and my one of my professors was like, Your work starts very realistic, but then it also has a very illustrative comic feel to it. And I was just like, No, you're not supposed to see that. I'm trying to get rid of that. He's just like, No, I don't think that's a bad thing. He's like, What would you do? Like, would you go back to just doing your comics? keeping your like embrace the illustration. I'm just like, is that that's okay? Yeah. And he's like, try it. So this is literally midway into my um college dissertation. Scrapped it all. Started over because of course I love the pressure. But started completely over and started working on um actually this series over here, Negrescence Comics, because I also have a feeling a love for like psychology and different social constructs and things as well. So Negrescence is actually um a social construct by psychologist William E. Cross Jr. about the five stages of becoming black. So I did an entire series and for my college or my high school graduate school, excuse me, graduate school dissertation on those five stages for myself on how I came to my own blackness. And it doesn't mean that it resonates with everybody but those stages did resonate with me. So this is stage three um and this is me kind of like rethinking everything that I've learned, everything that I was taught like kind of breaking free from the strains and whatnot. But ever since that conversation I no longer like push back the illustrative part or the comic esque part of my work. So I have an entire series like because I continued this series even after college of like these large scale comic book strips. So that's why it's like made with the Negrescent's comics the volume is how many times or how many years it had been at creation since Juneteenth. So yeah it was 151 years at the point. This would have been like maybe 2015 since um we were freed. So when people try to make it seem like oh it's years and years ago it's like it was not that long ago. We're talking a couple generations. Yeah. Um and then the volume number just depends on the certain situations and certain scenes that I'm depicting. So this was about me so this was number one volume one for but yeah I have not turned back since then and I'm just like it's either some things are gonna be really really realistic and some things are going to be illustrative and that's still art and that's okay.

SPEAKER_04 26:02

Yeah you got both yeah you got both it's a good little like marriage of both like I can't I feel like I can't get rid of one or the other but I think that's also what makes my style and my aesthetic my aesthetic so I agree I agree and and within the aesthetic obviously you have the different mediums that you're working through like which which medium do you enjoy most uh digital murals live painting or just free create uh I'm an oil girly so I feel like I prefer working in oil like all of these are oil.

SPEAKER_00 26:34

Um and I think that's just because with oil I can take my time. I don't have to speed through or kind of like rush it takes a while to dry um for that reason I'm usually working on more than one piece because like if one thing is dry I'm like I can't touch this so I have like a little rotation. I think it's because oil is my preference that that allowed me to work in other mediums as well. So it's like alright I'm working on this oil painting while that's drying I can work on this acrylic commission sketch for somebody else and then while I'm working on that like okay I have to travel so I'm gonna take my iPad and I'm gonna work on this so it's like I feel like I work in a way that I do everything or differ different mediums because I have something I can work on and do in my art field anywhere. And that's I get you I don't know if that's healthy or not but I always have something to work on what do you think Mike is that healthy I mean we we we always go back and forth on work life balance but uh that's actually one of our big questions we always ask about work life balance.

SPEAKER_03 27:38

I mean I think when when it's something that you're passionate about like art like being able to find a way to do your your passion in whatever environment I think that's really smart actually I mean it can be self-care if you do it right you know because art's always been self-care for me is getting all of that stuff out.

SPEAKER_04 27:59

Yeah I agree with that I I can't I can't um I can't fight against that I think it is and it just as long as you know you're giving yourself to still giving yourself a chance to still um rest and and and and recharge um when doing your work outside of that you have to because like this is something that we do for the passion of doing it um outside of our normal work and I'll tell you it it feels good like once we do it it's not I don't feel tired. Yeah I don't ever feel tired doing I enjoy doing it. And I guess this is this is something that we've asked everybody it's just funny because we're we're tying everything together. I like this we're tying everything together one thing about artists and you did talk about this is people ask you what you want to be when you're growing up and you tell them what you want to be and if it's not something that sounds good and standard like a lawyer or doctor et cetera like so how are you gonna feed yourself right um like as a as my child you're growing up you're gonna do these things we'll have to come behind you and save you from your own disaster right so number one question commission receiving money being paid this is what a lot of folks like to listen to our show about things um to our show to get information about how do I make what I want to do or seek something that will allow me to survive can you talk about your process when taking on commission work and how do you approach each request do you and do you prefer the commissions or free work?

Pricing, Contracts, And Saying No;

SPEAKER_00 29:25

So first and foremost if you're going to do art as a business you have to treat it like a business. So and that's just that's it you have to know your work and you have to know what you what works out like I I am grateful for my methodical and analytical side because I'm thinking like okay I'm that one who will record and how long it takes me to do a piece and I'm like alright this took me like 27 hours and the paintings cost this much the cost this the supplies cost this much and how much am I paying myself and sometimes like in the beginning I find that I'm paying myself like six seven dollars an hour I'm just like oh no I'm paying myself oh no no no no no no so you raise your prices and at that point that is when people will balk sometimes and those are some people who don't want to pay the rates or they're just like oh this is too much or this that and the third the thing is you don't internalize that you don't those just aren't your clients because I found over years of doing this I've been selling work since I was 16 IRS don't get me because I've had the LLC since like 2021. Wait wait six years six years it's fine it's fine it's fine it's fine so I I got burned too many times because I would have people who want to they're like oh I want a nine by 12 portrait okay and I want 12 family members you need to charge for even faces and things like that. I learned the hard way but I it's for that reason that I try not to gatekeep now like even with my kids and stuff like that like there'll be like teachers that'll be like oh I want to buy this work for or I want I want to take this work and be like uh how much are you paying them? And they're just like but that's a student. I'm like how much are you paying them? Because we're not doing free work right here and everything but I treat it definitely like um definitely like a business I have an LLC it is a business so I'm I'm clocking my mileage I'm clocking my supplies I'm clocking the time it takes me to do everything and if it's not worth my time money wise to to if it's not either bringing me significantly more business because exposure is not enough either. If it's not something that I'm getting paid for and I have a great chance not a slight chance but a great chance of making money from it or making more um revenue from it then it's not worth it and you just you just have to be able to detach enough to be like this just isn't my client because I I could see if I haven't had people willing to pay my prices before then I would wonder like if I'm doing something wrong but I've had people cut the check then and there. So it's like it's it's worth it if you want it to be worth it. But I just know that I trust the value and trust the process of what I have enough that it will come. And I also know I'm like I'm not out here just trying to it's not a get rich quick scheme for me or I'm not out here trying to like you know scam people like I've done the math like I should not be paid five dollars an hour. Like I it's like that's okay to say that.

SPEAKER_04 32:31

Yeah no you have to defend yourself you have to give yourself value.

SPEAKER_00 32:35

And you put for me I don't I don't particularly like the money negotiations because been there done that like I know it's difficult for some people like financially and whatnot it's difficult for us all um I kind of prefer to put my baseline prices in a spreadsheet and when I have my first conversations with people who do want commissions one of the first questions I ask them is one, what do you want? And two, do you have a given price range? And I will send them oftentimes I will send them my price list because I have a price list for paintings, for drawings for digital work because that varies depending on on medium and whatnot. These are your base prices and I say base prices because if you choose a 20 by 30 painting a 20 by 30 painting of one person is different than a 20 by 30 painting of like the apocalypse and your dog jumping out of a car and all that stuff together people have asked for some weird stuff. Because you went right to that the apocalypse the dog jumped out the car it's going down. Okay, all right but it's like that's gonna require a lot more work because like then how am I gonna make your dog look like it's jumping out the car and I got to do a lot more work for that. So I'm gonna charge you for that because you the planning and everything matters. So I've recorded myself enough and when I mean by recorded I mean like timed how long it takes me and what not because I was wondering if you meant like literally filmed yourself. No I just like okay I start at this time and then I finish at that time and that's also how I figured out I'm a relatively quick painter. So I charge for that as well because the fact that I can do your painting in a week and somebody else will take a month doesn't mean I need to get paid less. Just good point I've got skilled that's a good point. So we're gonna charge I'm gonna charge you for that so um that's just basically what it is but I give everybody a contract I love a good contract so do sign is my best price importance of having good paperwork good paperwork. And I stress I'm like the contract is not just for me it's for you as well because I can't just take your money and then run away like exactly I typically will charge 50% up front which some people will balk at but if I do the painting of your grandmother and then you no longer want it what am I going to do with this painting of your grandmother nobody wants your grandmother but you like respectfully like I don't want this so that's why I'm in the I can't use that in a show or whatnot. Can I get that picture that that stranger over there I mean maybe her outfit resonated with somebody I don't know but that's typically not how that goes so at least with commissions I will say my commissions I charge a little bit more with nuance than I do for like selling my original work. Okay. Because my original work typically goes with um my body and my voice and different things. So I can use it in exhibitions use it in shows. When you're doing something that's more customizable it's the same thing like buying something customized from the store. What it is like shoes it could be a monogram. For you so I'm gonna charge you because this is something that's custom for you. So I'm you're gonna pay for that and a lot of times I love the marriage of it. I love when I'm asked to do what I usually do. That way it's like ooh I love this concept like I'm working on a piece for someone right now and it's literally just I want you to do it the way that you would do it. It's very uh the thought process is very deep very intellectual it's uh based on uh I guess I will say it's based on WEB Du Bois's like um double consciousness and that's something that I would paint anyway so I'm like I like this I like this okay okay so the only thing I'm actually sad about for this one is that dang I don't get to keep this it's like I gotta give it away and everything. So yeah yeah but that's kind of how I approach things with the whole contract to protect them protect me and make sure that no matter what even if I'm tired I'm like at least I'm getting paid good money for this so I'm gonna I'm gonna be not be tired today. It's a different situation than like going to a job and you're just like I know why I'm here. I can't even afford bread like different things like that. I don't I'm not if I have to do that in the real world I'm for darn sure not doing it with my my art career.

Symbolism, “Sugarcoated,” And Addiction;

SPEAKER_04 36:51

I'm not doing it for that so that's a good that's a good point. That's a good way to put it uh I like they say if I can't even afford bread I'm not going out like that yeah you have to you have to do that you have to kind of in creative work you have to force a a line a boundary that you will not go past so that like again you're asserting your value you're making sure that you can take care of yourself in order to be a good creative to continue to do your job because if not and we were talking with somebody about this today the the emotional part of doing the art and being there if you that's it yeah you start to hate it I'm not about to start hating it because you really need this picture of an ASCAR like I don't it's like I hate drawing cars so I like I want card number two and I need car number two now you'd be like no no it's also even in just knowing when to say no as well like there's some things that people ask for like I know technically I can do it but I know I really don't want to but hey I also know somebody who does this and they love doing it.

SPEAKER_00 38:00

So let me refer you. Yeah let me tell I've know this other great artist that does cars all the time here you go with them so get your NAS car on.

SPEAKER_04 38:09

Um I have this is a good question.

SPEAKER_00 38:11

I I'm happy this question was here because you don't normally think about this um but with you especially like Ann Magruder etc um you have some political theories and also some um concepts in your work that are that are in depth and we'll we're gonna talk about some of them this is funny for me to ask this question do you like incorporating any hidden messages in your work for viewers to discover I love incorporating messages I don't know if I would say that they're hidden they write there I mean they're there you just have to I love I love symbolism like I I used to tell my students I'm like I can write you an entire 10 page paper on cheese baby like this I was an English minor as well so yeah I'm just little thing I was English minor I love love writing tell people I made it through undergrad on a full scholarship and people are like oh is that artistic is like no baby that's academic artists aren't stupid Howard teaches the artist scholars I'm like artists are stupid there's a scholar get them so get them I love work that is intellectual as well so I love incorporating different symbols and different things that I love work that's gonna make somebody stop and think I like the prettiness of things but also what depth do you have to it what conversations can you have so I mentioned with the Negressant series that there's always some type of symbolism and even with like the volumes and the numbers it's not just there because it's there. Yeah there's a reason why it's there um with this piece over here with the donuts and the licorice and candies and whatnot um this piece is called sugarcoated and it it gets people a lot of people like it messed us up I'm not gonna lie she bought it in we didn't see everything at first I love it oh wait oh wait oh wait a minute can you could you tell our audience the story you're telling us about the little kid that saw this picture and yeah so I was bringing this to my car from my residency and there's like a little girl who's maybe like six or seven and she runs up and she's just like oh my gosh I love that it's so colorful and everything and she's like telling her parents like mommy daddy I want this painting I want this painting and they're just like oh look at the donuts and everything and they're just looking at it and they're just like oh wait like you can see the change in their face like is that a syringe is that wait is that cocaine and she's just like mommy can I have a picture of it and it's like oh and they're trying to be respectful of me but also like because it's like and I'm just like no it's okay it's okay maybe not this one maybe another one this is another one that's got the pretty lady on it we'll take this one maybe not this one but it's it's meant to I love pieces that make you come in like that's one of the reasons why people oh you're invited in yeah oh yeah that is one of the reasons like that illustrative and comic book kind of feel kind of brings me my color my paintings are very vibrant I love paintings that are colorful bright they invite you in yes and it's kind of like that Venus by plytrap. I'm like come on in come on and have this conversation before you know it it's just like now you're in a conversation sit down let's have a conversation I was like I love that kind of thing like I don't like shock value for the sake of shock value or just to just make people angry my work is never to make anyone angry or to just be like well this is what I feel and this is what I think my work is always meant to invoke conversation in however I need to get you to the table to have the conversation is how I'm gonna get you to the table.

SPEAKER_04 41:38

Fruitful conversation yeah you I always I'm happy that you said that I'm happy you said that oh I'm happy you said that so art and this gets this gets into a little bit of the things that are that go on in any society any point in period of society from um ancient times modern etc but art is supposed to make you think it's supposed to make you uh try to conceptualize the society you're in and you're experiencing it in a way outside of the normal realm because sometimes we don't see past to what we're dealing with on the day to day so even with this uh painting with the donuts what was interesting as we're getting set up and I'm happy that you said that is we've looked past it we're just looking at them donuts we're like donuts and candies donuts and candies and after while I was looking I was like there's some interesting things in here with these donuts and candies but it immediately makes you think about the donuts in a different way the candy in a different way the gummy bears in a different way that food roll up in a different way and how your relationship to it might be um aligned with something else that's going on. Right and in our everyday life we're we're hustling and bustling we're in the rat race we don't sometimes take time to sit down and and understand these things and this is where art starts in it makes you put a mirror to yourself.

SPEAKER_00 43:02

Exactly like this piece is part of a series called Mad World and it's a series that I'm just doing of just all of the craziness and I've had content for days all of the craziness that's a headline of things going on not just in America but in the world today. So um I had seen a statistic about how um we have an opioid epidemic right now like how so many people are on opioids and different drugs and different things like that and how even sugar in it in and of itself is an addiction. Like the fact like if I were to be like oh I'm gonna kick sugar like I'm probably like kicking and screaming to somebody no no I can't do it like I can't empire starts with sugar pre pre say that again Mike Empire starts with sugar would you only know would you if you only knew so the addictions that we have big and small and if you even want to call it small but they're there and they are just riddled with it and we just stay in our happy oblivion of just like oh low this is nice oh it's colorful it's free like all of the all of the like dyes that we put in things like it doesn't like you can't say that oh I'm better just because it's like I'm not doing crack.

Regal Representation And The Harmonious Series;

SPEAKER_04 44:18

I'm not addicted to anything but you're on your third cup of coffee today red 40 exact oh the red 40 teaching the kids Jesus them would be talkies we need y'all off that red 40 no you're right it is it's uh it's something it's it's one of those things like do you have moral equivalence or are you allowing this to go by just because it's a prettier form of the same plight. Exactly I think we do allow that um in society and just thinking about like looking at this I was feeling bad because I have I have a there's a provider at my office maybe they bring donuts every Friday and I'm looking at this and I'm like I'll be so happy when they bring the donut sink and they be all pretty looking stuff they all colors and stuff. You know what's my friend I'm gonna grab me a donut right but then you think about it like I don't really need that donut I'm not gonna be good about not having this donut and my and I will tell you my wife she preaches on this sheet her education isn't health and stuff and so we always talk about these things and not having certain things around to eat and etc and being good to our bodies and the reason why and sugar and inflammation and how that bothers your ability to heal properly and when you sleep at night. And it's like that's tiring it's a lot of work it's a lot of work but the overall understanding of it and being able to do that you realize at the end of the day it's actually not that bad. Um, you gotta get over the first couple of weeks so you know you got shakes and stuff, not eating enough sugar sweating and stuff. You'd be looking like a heroin addict. I apologize to you to the youth that are listening, but you'll look like a real drug addict once you start cleaning that sugar out of your body and you realize how much of an effect it has on your overall um decision making on what you eat and et cetera.

SPEAKER_00 46:08

Even just the fact it's it all comes full circle. It's like it's better to keep us unhealthy and in these states of you know, really dependency on certain substances we put in our bodies because okay, big pharmacy is big business, and that's a whole thing as well. So it's just like, you know, I didn't I've never even drank coffee so much until I started teaching again. It's like now it's just like like we we had an incident in our school where the power was out. When I can tell you so many angry teachers because they couldn't get their first cup of coffee, and it's just like zombies walking, just ready to just rip the head off of everybody. It's like they're like, oh, it's bad for us right now. We we um door-dashed coffee. Really? Yeah, we did.

SPEAKER_04 46:51

So you gotta keep them calm because you don't want them hurting. You like, all right, so we got the zombies they got today. They like coffee. Let's give them coffee so they don't hurt nobody. That's real. That's a real deal, Holy Field. That energy drinks. Um, what the the oh my gosh, the energy drinks. I didn't know there was they were as bad as they were because they were they were sold as a great alternative. Um, but yeah, I when art makes you have conversations like this, it is amazing. Now, I I do want to ask you, um, before I I bother you on this other question, about this piece behind us. If you can explain to our audience a little bit, what are what are we what are we looking at?

SPEAKER_00 47:30

So this piece is part of my harmonious collection. Um it's probably one of the more palatable series that I have, but you know, sometimes I like palatable, sometimes I want them to choke a little bit, but it's okay, you know. This series is pretty much me showing different raith races and ethnicities and wanting to show them in a more regal light. So the entire series is about black and brown people and showing them in very regal ways with the gold leaf is always incorporated. I saw that. Purples are always incorporated for those royal colors because we are here, we're in this country, we're not all delinquents are evil or things like that. Like there is a a whole history and a royalness behind you know different Latino cultures or Arabic cultures or black and brown cultures and things like that. Um, I also have var varieties of shapes. So I have um and and honestly, I didn't even notice a disbias myself until someone brought it up to me. It's like, you know, you never paint out of shape people. And I'm just like, You right. So I had to, I did some series of different body types in this one. Um I did a series of someone with bit of LIGO. So I just wanted to show like these differences and show it more regally and more um profoundly than what we would usually see them as. So that's what this is. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_04 49:00

That's awesome because when I saw that I already like, oh, I want to buy this. This looks good to put up in the house because it like I said, it seems like it's um it's inviting, but it seems like it's something that that incorporates everybody into one thing. That's awesome. That's beautiful art, beautiful art. Um this next question is gonna be about you doing shows, galleries, stuff, installations, etc. Um, what kind of challenges have you faced when installing your work for an exhibition? And do you prefer solo shows or showcasing it, showcasing your work alongside others?

SPEAKER_00 49:34

So my biggest challenges right now are probably size. Um I tend to go bigger, go home.

SPEAKER_04 49:41

You were telling me this when we came in. Uh you all these these these I thought this was large. I was like, wow, these are large. She says, mm-mm.

SPEAKER_00 49:47

These are my smaller pieces. These are the babies. I drive a compact SUV. Now I have to travel with what I can fit in my car. These my other pieces do not fit in my car.

SPEAKER_04 50:00

How do you transport them?

SPEAKER_00 50:01

My daddy in his truck.

SPEAKER_04 50:03

Thank you for daddy living down the street. And no wonder he's a supporter. He's a supporter, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:08

And then like my my dad and my husband, fun thing. I did like all these giant pieces that were like maybe five to seven feet each. And I got this show. This is a show in Michigan. I got this show when I was still living in Baltimore.

SPEAKER_02 50:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:25

COVID hit.

SPEAKER_02 50:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:27

Had to come back home. So before it's like, oh, this is an eight-hour drive. That's fine. Had to come back here. So from Charleston all the way to like Detroit is not an eight-hour drive. So I was just like, so y'all want to drive with me? And when I say drive with me, I really mean me be me be a passenger princess because I don't do I don't do road trips like you ain't do no driving. My dad and my he was he was literally just a boyfriend at the time, but um they drove my work all the way.

SPEAKER_04 50:59

Is that how you knew it was time to marry you? You're like, you know what? He is dedicated.

SPEAKER_00 51:02

Listen, he followed me from Baltimore. So it's like I was like, oh, you was committed before. Oh, he was committed.

SPEAKER_04 51:06

He was like, that's the one.

SPEAKER_00 51:08

Like I'll be there in six months. I was just like, no, he won't. Yeah, he followed me. He was here. Yeah, he was here. So they drove my work from here in the U-Haul and whatnot. So all my pieces are large. I've they are in a storage unit or in various places. So that's the hardest thing. Like I have to I have to really think about what shows I do and where I showcase because it matters. Shipping matters and travel matters. So I try to do things that I can um persuade them with, like a dinner or something.

SPEAKER_04 51:41

You like food, right? Um could you come? Question, which so where all right, obviously you have a place to store it. Where are you producing these works with the size that you're talking about? Where are they being produced at? You have a studio that you work in?

SPEAKER_00 51:55

I have a home studio, so I've always had to have an extra bedroom or whatnot. So like even when um my husband met and everything, he's just like, Why do you have a two-bedroom and a shishu? Why is the master bedroom an art studio? It's like, have you seen my paintings? Oh, you haven't seen my paintings. That's why there's always why. So I have a uh extra bedroom that we've completely good old pops and everything, re completely reconfigured. So he's made the wall like a sliding easel and put studio lightings and everything in there. So yeah.

SPEAKER_04 52:27

Okay, so you do you have a good space to do your work? I always ask artists that because that that space and where you do it, that's almost like in the spiritual, it's like your ashram. That's where you go to get your vibe in to make sure you can produce something. It is your um It's your safe space, yeah, man. And you have to have one, right? I always ask people, you have to. I I don't know too many people that don't. Um now as you work toward becoming, as people say, as you work towards becoming, obviously, in my opinion, you're a full-time artist.

SPEAKER_00 52:56

I am.

SPEAKER_04 52:57

You're right? I work too full-time art. Come on, come on. I that's what you are to me. Uh, and it seems that way. Um, how can others best support you in your work?

SPEAKER_00 53:06

Um, sharing is hearing always. Like it's if it is not within your means to actually buy or purchase and everything, because there's been plenty of business that I'm like, dang, I wish I could buy right now. I just don't have it. But you don't know if you sharing or you just talking them up to people can actually get them business or somebody who is in that position or whatnot. So the best way is literally just sharing work, sharing by word of mouth, sharing in in hyping it up and everything. That is a huge, huge, huge help. And even me, like shameless plug, someone nominated me for best of South Carolina. So I'm just like, hey, you know, I won't I didn't know I wanted that, but now I know I want that because that's more things for the first time.

SPEAKER_04 53:51

So what was that nominee nomination for this year?

SPEAKER_00 53:53

Yes, for this year.

SPEAKER_04 53:55

So where can they go vote for you?

SPEAKER_00 53:56

They can vote for me at don't quote me on the exact link, but I know if you type in Best of Charleston, or excuse me, best of South Carolina, this because there's a best of Charleston and a Best of South Carolina. I was wondering, yeah. And best of South Carolina.

SPEAKER_04 54:09

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 54:09

And I am under the Arts and Entertainment.

SPEAKER_04 54:12

Shut the front door because you know I'm gonna go vote for you.

SPEAKER_00 54:15

Thank you.

SPEAKER_04 54:15

Why would I not, right? So I'm gonna make sure I'm going, I'm pulling in right now. I see it here, okay, obviously.

SPEAKER_00 54:20

And I'm going to workshops and arts and stuff, because I do art classes and workshops and live painting, so it's for that.

SPEAKER_04 54:26

Oh, all right, so on a workshop, I see it here.

SPEAKER_00 54:30

So I've been teaching for almost a decade, like, of course.

SPEAKER_04 54:32

And what is what's the name?

SPEAKER_00 54:34

Uh That Art Nerd LLC. So that is my business. It's that art nerd. And in college, particularly in undergrad, I didn't talk to a lot of people at first, but I was always doing art stuff around the class or around the um campus. So they're like, you know Kanish? And you're like, who? You're like that art girl, that one who's always, you know, in all the things. They really just call you that art girl. That art nerd. So I was like, oh, I was like, I'm gonna embrace this. So I was that art nerd.

Calendars, Seasons, And Burnout;

SPEAKER_04 54:58

Yeah, yeah, the art nerd. Oh, that's so cool. All right, so that art nerd LLC, and that's on guide to southcarolina.com. Best of forward slash vote forward slash art entertainment. It's there easy to go. You don't have to do anything crazy, get your vote in for it, because why not? We gotta support our folks. So, yeah, that's awesome. That's awesome. Um most important question in the world. Because obviously, you work a lot, you have a family, children?

SPEAKER_00 55:28

No kids, no kids yet. Fur baby. Oh, kind of what kind of fur baby yet? She's a chihuahua. She doesn't know she's a chihuahua, though.

SPEAKER_03 55:35

They never do, though, right? They never do. They're always great dangers and German shepherds.

SPEAKER_04 55:42

How do you find balance between work and your personal life?

SPEAKER_00 55:47

It's an ongoing question. See, that's why I ask. We always ask this. Right now I love my calendar because it has to be on my calendar. Um, right now I've been embracing the word no as a good complete total sentence. Good. Like there are times where like I can't do all of the things. So the answer is no. And I've been scheduling relaxation as well because I know me, I'm very much go, go, go, go, go, and then I will quite literally crash, and that's not healthy, and I can't be preaching for people to take care of themselves if I'm not taking care of myself as well. Say it. So I I try to be as structured as possible, going back to that structure. So I'm like, okay, if I'm telling myself I'm going to do seven hours of uninterrupted work, that's it. But if I'm telling myself this is the time I'm cutting off, that's the time I'm cutting off. So you hold yourself to it. I've been handling it, especially since I'm like, I'm treating this as it's going to be, the one and only full time. So if I know I'm not just gonna be hanging out at the school until eleven o'clock at night, then I need to make sure I treat this the same way. So that's how I've been trying to handle it.

SPEAKER_04 56:57

I have a question for you that it's something that's always in the back of my mind when it comes to um work, life, balance, and and even creative ventures. How does the how do the seasons affect you? Do you do you see that you have a battle with making sure your balance is better at certain times of the year than than others? Like do you have certain times of the year where you feel more productive, you feel better and more vibrant in doing your work than you do in other times of the year?

SPEAKER_00 57:26

I think right now the seasons that I'm teaching is the hardest time because of course my time is literally divided between being in the classroom and being at home, and then most people who teach know, like it's not typical nine to five, you end here, like I still gotta grade papers and grade lessons, and yes, I do assign writing assignments, so I gotta read that and give them a You can't make people write class. They look at me, they're just like, We have to write, and like, yeah, artists aren't stupid, baby. Why are you not capitalizing your eyes? I get that artists aren't stupid. Yes. It's like, no, that's a proper noun. So, but even just grading projects and stuff like that, that takes time. So I find myself during the school year to have a harder time. Um, summertime is a lot easier after I get over the initial burnout because there's like a zombie period for all teachers after school ends where you're just like, I can't leave my couch, I can't leave my bed. Like this, you have to become a person again. So I think but by the time I start to become a person again, that's when I can start doing my artwork again, and then it's time to go back. So I think once one is gone, I think I'll always be an educator, just likely not in this traditional sense, but I enjoy teaching and I enjoy giving back. So that'll always be a part of my my artistry. It's just I don't have to be in someone's classroom structure to do that. So once that is gone, I think the biggest thing is gonna be me trying to figure out what I do with actually having free time because I don't like it. I literally go from teaching and then I go home and I give myself like an hour or so, you know, cook dinner, do whatever stuff, hang out with the husband and the dog, and I'm like, all right, I got this commission, I got like three, three and a half hours that I can work on that before I gotta go to bed. So back to work, right back to work. So being able to actually have off time it's gonna be different. It's gonna be so different. I'm excited. It's gonna be a blessing. I'm afraid, but don't be afraid.

SPEAKER_04 59:26

I was like, oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:28

It's like that panic where you're just like, oh gosh, am I forgetting something?

SPEAKER_04 59:30

It's like, no, no, you're actually good. You're fine. Like when you wake up out of your sleep and you thought you missed your alarm, like you gotta be somewhere and you don't.

SPEAKER_02 59:37

I'm looking forward to it.

SPEAKER_04 59:38

I am so finally, um, in closing, this is time I'm happy you said this earlier with shameless plugs. This is your shameless plugs time. So feel free to let our audience know where they can find you at, what you have ongoing. Um, and if there's anything that you haven't already explained or expressed to the team, you just let the audience know at this time. It's your time to shine.

SPEAKER_00 59:58

Okay, so you can find me online, that art nerd. Um, you can find me at that art nerdcs or just thatart nerd.com, either one. CS stands for Creative Studio. Um, so you can find me that way. You can also find me on Instagram, it's that underscore art underscore nerd. I don't really use the tickety talks, but you can definitely find me on Instagram with that.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:21

All right.

Support, Certifications, And Plugs;

SPEAKER_00 1:00:21

Um I will answer, you can ask me any question, you know. I'm pretty pretty open with that. Um right now I am working on some commissions. I am booked through May with commissions right now. And then I will be starting some mural work. And I have maybe about half my summer booked, but it's a little flexible. So I'm like, okay, guys, go ahead and make it. Make it work, yeah, make it work and everything. I am certified through the South Carolina Arts Commission as one of the muralists. I'm one of four certified muralists for Go ahead, talk your trash, yeah. Just like so, if you have to use state money, you have only four options, and why not let it be me? So that is, I guess you could say some of my shameless plugs right there.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:07

That's what I'm talking about. That's awesome. Well, um, I know we have to wrap up. Always like to tell folks, let's get to this good point. I am DJ Ann What. Mike skips another room. Tamaya's not with us on this episode, but we'll have her on the next one. And our esteemed guest, Kenny Charmin. Awesome. We we greatly appreciate having you on the show today. Um, and until the next episode, please tell somebody next to you that you love them and you appreciate them. I'm gonna continue to repeat this in this day and age that we are in right now. It's very important that you are letting those uh next to you know that you do appreciate them, show them love, show them care. Um, and as a shout out, just to give you a heads up, we are in Lynx Recording Studios today. Uh, this is where we are getting busy, as I always like to uh always like to say, um, as a heads up for it, this space is actually rentable. Um, on peerspace.com uh you can search Link Recording Studios. There are three unique spaces in here that you can rent out and use at your own leisure. Um, with that being said, there is a uh if you do not use the internet, and I always gotta remember some people don't use internet, you can call and request to book the space at 843-771-0016. And this space is by appointment only. Outside of that, we love when you all um like, subscribe, and share. And don't forget we also have a Patreon. So please um join in and share our information. Um, these are videos we do them out of the love of our community and the creative community and entrepreneur community. But we really just want to make sure that people are able to get resources and information about things that they know and or that they want to know more about and things that they love. But until the next time, peace.