SPEAKER_02 2:21

Good afternoon, good afternoon. Welcome to the special episode of the Hilltop Club Podcast. I'm DJ and White with my brother Skip. What's up? How you doing today? And we have a special episode for this Father's Day. And this is one of our favorite people to talk to. And I always tell people please have good relationships with your parents. It helps you out in the long run, especially whenever you need good advice or et cetera, especially if your parents are there. It's always best, as they say, to give them their flowers while they're here now instead of waiting for later. But today we're speaking with my father. Yeah, yeah, yeah. My father and my brother's father. Yeah, it's both my father's. Come on, Dave. Kevin Bernard Saggers, senior. We're going to put a senior on it because he do have Junior right here, number two right here. Yes. Right beside us. And he does have his daughter with him, Savannah. So this is going to be a great episode. We're going to talk a little bit about fatherhood, being a father, what it's like, how you deal with it, the things that come along with it, etc. And one thing about our podcast, we like being honest and truthful. And we also like to help us out because as millennials, adulting is challenging and hard. And so wherever we can get advice from or assistance and making sure that this journey is smooth, we try to do so. So how you doing today, Pops?

SPEAKER_00 3:42

Oh, I'm doing fine. I'm doing fine for Father's Day. Excellent. What have you with my little princess with the hair grinning and what have you? Yes, she is.

SPEAKER_02 3:59

Well, first things first, just so our audience can know, if you could just tell them a little bit about yourself, where you're from, etc., some things you may like. Just so they know before we get into this um conversation that you are people too. Because I always like to tease, but sometimes it's like uh it's like our peanuts. That's how people look at their parents. They just go wah wah wah wah wah. But you know, we are they are people too, so tell them a little bit about yourself, Pop.

SPEAKER_00 4:25

Okay. Tell you about Kevin Stagger Sr. Born and raised in New Haven, Connecticut, 1960. So I was I was part of the the baby boom generation. And you know, we we went through some times and we see some changes in the 60s. I'm talking about because I I I'm always I have this memory. Uh I can go back and I remember things since I was I remember when I was like three, four years old at times. I have those memories. And the thing about it, I remember just growing up in a with a lot of family, you know. Just, you know, because it was a big family. I am the youngest of ten.

SPEAKER_02 5:18

Please repeat that. I I think I remember growing up hearing that, I thought that was wild.

SPEAKER_00 5:22

Yeah, the youngest of ten. Well, actually, I'm the second youngest of ten because I had a brother younger than me. And, you know, being the youngest of ten after, you know, my youngest brother passed, I guess I'm the baby of the family, as they always called me. It's just you always looked out after or taken care of, or somebody was always looking out for you, or so, you know, I was I was cared for and what have you. And being the youngest, I always wanted to find out for myself. Because back in that day, back then, I used to explore your freedoms, you know, as a child, you could explore without worrying about, you know, people trying to snatch you up and what have you. Yeah, because I'm talking about, you know, five years old walking a couple of blocks, you know, to go to the store, just me and my buddy or what have you, or me and my sister, and what have you. So, you know, you had those freedoms and stuff growing up in the 60s and growing up in New England, in New England town, yeah, and what have you. So, because we were like one of the first, or probably I think we were the first black family on our street when I was like about five years old.

unknown 7:11

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 7:12

Four or five years old. Yeah, about 64, 65. And I never experienced any difficulties with that, even though it was around, but I never experienced any difficulties with it.

SPEAKER_02 7:34

But especially, you know how how it's being the perception of it nowadays, because like they say, um, out of sight, out of mind, everything's in sight, in mind right now. So especially when you say stuff like that for back then, people are like, what? You you you didn't experience any issues or anything like that?

SPEAKER_00 7:50

Oh, no, I didn't. Not at, you know, not at that age. And until I experienced it when I came, experienced the racism when I came south one time. No, we came on a trip one time because your grandfather, my father, was he always he was always a hustler and you know, he was a businessman, you know, on the side. He worked and then he hustled on the side. So he would he had a friend, Mr. Johnson, no, Mr. Howard. He used to travel south. He used to come south and what have you pick up supplies. We always had one of these big station wagons.

SPEAKER_02 8:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:31

So he used to come south and what have you travel south a couple of times a month. Just for a weekend, you know, a couple of days. And uh to pick up supplies for his friends, a corner store, and for things for family that, you know, you didn't normally get, that you were accustomed to from the south, and you didn't have it up there, stores didn't sell it up there, so he can come back. He'd come down here, pick up a load, you know, load up the car with it, and the top car and inside the car, and we'd go on back, you know, and he'd sell it, Mr. Howard, who'd sell it in his stores, he'd make a couple dollars off of it. He'd like, you know, he used to buy cases of cigarettes and he'd sell them off and what have you. That's what he did. Yes, they did, yeah. That was extra money because you get it so much cheaper down here. You get back then, they were buying a carton of cigarettes for like about two dollars down in the south, and he'd sell it for, you know, eight, ten dollars up there. Whoa, so whoa. So that's the stuff, you know, he used to do. So we came down one time, and I remember we, you know, you're five, six years old, and you stop at a there's a pizza restaurant. I see this pizza restaurant, and I said, I said, Oh, we're going to the pizza, go to get some pizza. Pizza restaurant. And um we're going, my father went into the pizza restaurant. I didn't realize why we had to sit in the car first. We were in North Carolina. It was 701 or 301, I'm not sure. And he went in because this was before 95 of us finished being wasn't a good one. Oh, so there was no, you were on the regular. Oh, yeah, there were 95. They were still building 95. And I remember this as a kid. And he went in and he came back out and he he said, No, we won't be getting any pizza and what have you.

SPEAKER_02 10:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:27

So, oh, we're gonna get any pizza. Can't use the bathroom, we couldn't get any pizza going up the road, and I'm hearing my parents talk, and what have you, and they're talking about, you know, you know, they didn't serve black people and stuff in there and what have you. So that was my first boom. This is yeah, there's something different going on. Oh, sure. You know, so and uh that was one of my first experiences and one of the first times I heard of Martin Luther King. Oh wow. Because I remember them talking in this conversation, talking about, you know, Martin Luther King and the civil rights movement. And oh wow. I said, okay, whatever that. And I asked my mother, what was the silver ice, I was calling it silver rights. Silver rights. Because I was a kid, I didn't understand. And um, I said, uh, what was this, silver rights person and stuff like that. And she was trying to explain to me as best she knew what it was about. But I never, you know, I didn't know at that time that's what it was related to until I got older I realized that's what had happened. You were living. Yeah, you know, and what have you, because hell, across the street, my best friends. Two of my best friends, well, three of my best friends growing up were white kids. You know. When my mother was going, she went back to night school, was going to nursing school to get her nursing certificate and stuff like that back in the day. This was the woman who used to feed us and pick us up after school and feed us, give us our lunch when my mother was working during the day and what have you, little Evelyn Gargano, and what have you. So me and her son, we were me and her son, she because she had four or five kids at the time. She ended up having seven.

unknown 12:29

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 12:30

They had to be practicing Catholics. Oh, yeah. She was a husband, yeah. Yeah, you know, so and uh so you know they were our neighbors, and then you had the Sakikis next door, Salvador, he was my friend, um and what have you, and up the street, little Lenny Roach. Even though they used to call it Roach. Oh, maybe it's a horrible name. No, but see that they had to change their name when they came over from Italy, his family. Actually, it's Roachelli. Oh, that sucks. So that's the stuff, you know, Anthony Carrano. And then the only first black person I met as a friend on that street was Jerry Blue, who moved in next door to us.

SPEAKER_02 13:11

That's why I also like literally you grew up. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 13:14

Like, you didn't, that stuff wasn't in your mind, wasn't running by you until yeah, because okay, Anthony Carrano's lived down the street from me. All of us used to play baseball and stuff together and football. All of us. Jimmy Gargano and Stanley Smith and what have you. I was the only black kid and stuff. And, you know, Anthony Carrano, I found Anthony Carrano's father, he was the police commissioner in New Haven at the time. I didn't know. The DeLoches used to live next door to about two doors down. And their father, he was the chairman of the city council in New Haven and what have you. Our doctor, Dr. Massey, used to live not too far from us too, but on the other side of town. But they used to make house calls back then.

SPEAKER_02 14:01

I was about to say, yeah, yeah. You said that like you actually knew the doctor.

SPEAKER_00 14:06

Yeah. See, because he'd come to the house, it'd be eight, nine, ten o'clock at night. If everybody had the bug, he'd have to come do his thing. So it was like, hey, he showed up quick. It was like he wasn't that far. So I thought he was right in the neighborhood. But yeah, that's my experience growing up in New Haven as a youngster. That's interesting. And, you know, that sort of shaped me for fatherhood, seeing what my father had to go through, and seeing where he came from and what he had been through. I know. Marion South Carolina. Yeah. But originally he's from the Manning King Street area. Yeah. Originally. Yeah. And so he came from that. That's the area, you know, that he came from, you know, and he was one of many children, I'm not sure. Six, seven, eight, and what have you. So, you know. Big family as well. Yeah, big family. So, you know, that was his thing, part of his story, because you know, he grew up with a stepfather because his father, he lost his father. From my understanding, it was uh he was it was a storm came up and he was coming back from the field or working and what have you. And he got under a tree and lightning struck. The tree and the lightning killed his father, his true father, blood biological father. Yes. And uh gentleman by the name of Washington actually raised him. And, you know, but you know, back then, you know, when you there was no school for black kids down there, and he never said he wanted to, you know, grow up in the South or want his kids to grow up in the South. So that's one of the reasons he left the South because it was there was nothing for a black man in South Carolina. Wow. You know.

SPEAKER_02 16:10

When did he do you remember when he when they said when what time he left?

SPEAKER_00 16:13

Uh my father left. My father actually left a few times. Okay. Okay, he left from down in Manning, King Street area. That was back in the 30s. He went to Washington, D.C. Back in the 30s. And him and his sister, one of his sisters, Malua, then they ended up coming back. He ended up coming back this way to visit family and stuff, and that's when he actually met my mother, and he was working and what have you, for some. I think he had something to do with, I think he told me railroad or something. I'm not sure. Because your father your grandfather used to love the trains. He used to like travel trains. And that's when he met your grandmother. Happy for that. In Lulland, South Carolina. That's where he met her. So in that, that's when they moved to Connecticut in the late 30s. Wow. But they stayed, they stayed in Washington for a little while. Then they ended up in Connecticut. And that's what he, you know, that's what I've gotten from him. And from that point, he never came back here to live. He said he would never come back here to live. He didn't even want to be buried in South Carolina. For real? Yeah. Where did they end up burying him? In Connecticut, New Haven. Making sure. Yeah, he's in the same cemetery. So I I don't know what his experience was with South Carolina, but I knew he never wanted to. It wasn't a good one. No, it wasn't. It wasn't.

SPEAKER_02 18:04

So that's part of that great migration, too. Oh, sure. Yeah. Marco got up out of there. Like they said, there was no opportunity. They were trying to do debt pinage. He wasn't having none of that.

SPEAKER_00 18:16

No. And see, all the major industry and what have you was in the north. And what have you. And you had the unions and what have you putting out and sending information into the rural areas of the South trying to get you know recruit these, you know, black folk to come up there and work in the industry, just like in, you know, Detroit, you know, Pennsylvania and places like that and what have you. Ohio, that area. So, you know, he was one of that many of that migration. Yeah. That's it. And that was a positive, too.

SPEAKER_02 18:57

Yes, it was. You're not lying. Because like without him making that decision, the possibility of having a family and actually having them be prosperous during that time would have been dwindling. But after after your growing up in your youth, where'd you go to high school? I went to Richard C.

SPEAKER_00 19:16

Lee High School.

SPEAKER_02 19:17

Hey, Richard C. Lee High School. Who's it named after? Always I couldn't see them. I'm like, who's it named after?

SPEAKER_00 19:23

It was named after Mayor, Richard C. Lee. Uh-huh. Gentlemen used to remind, as I got older, I thought about him. I said he used to remind me of, he had this look like Jimmy Carter. And he was, you know, that he was the mayor of New Haven back in the 60s. He was one of the mayors. Okay. And what have you, because, you know, the high school was actually a project school. They decided. I guess some of them in at uh university in the city of New Haven, and some people in government, it was just city government or federal government. It had to be federal because there was so much money put in it through the federal government. So where they came from to see, and this was something I think was going on all over the country to create a schools, uh high school in urban areas with a real diverse group of students. And it started, it was in 1966, the school was opened, and it was a 20-year project they were doing. And then in 1986, when it was open, they cut it and it was they closed the school. Seriously? That was it. That's how it worked. That was a project. It wasn't meant to be there forever.

SPEAKER_02 20:48

That sounds wild.

SPEAKER_00 20:50

Like the listeners, you're gonna hear that name, like what, a project school? That was it. And I'm quite sure they're there or throughout the country in certain areas and whatever. And but it what it was, it was a diverse group of students. You mingled and associated with people from all cultures. You had wealthy kids who went there. You know, we had everyone from Asians, we had Jewish, we had Latinos, we had Russians, we had, you know, we had some French students, we had German students, we Arab students.

SPEAKER_02 21:39

How aren't they getting these students to go there?

SPEAKER_00 21:42

From throughout the city, they they took students from all over the city. They were picking, you know, because there were areas where certain groups of people lived in in the city of New Haven. And what really bugged me out years later is that you had the Jewish students who lived in pretty much the Westville area, New Haven, the Western part. But in that same vein, you had some Middle Easterns like the some Iranians and some Iraqis and you know Middle Eastern Indians living in that area too.

unknown 22:20

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 22:21

But they would, you know, be busting to the hill area, that's where it was. And they actually, you know, took the Latino kids from, you know, we had more a lot of Puerto Ricans at the time, a lot of Puerto Ricans from Puerto Rico and Cubans. And they were from the Fair Haven neighborhood. And, you know, you had people we had uh a lot of Italians and what have you from East Haven area or what have you, and they would they were busting east. Of the spectrum, right? And the black folk lived mainly in the black folk lived a little everywhere around there though. I was about to say, yeah, right. So that there was a centralized area where the New Hall area and what had where black folk lived, that's and they bought some of those students and they had their high school over there that they predic particularly w you know stayed in the majority of. And then there's one in Fairhaven called the Wilbercross High School, you had Hill House High School, and you had Richard C. Lee. These are the three major high school players. And what have you. And Wilvercross and Hellhouse are still there, correct? Yes, they're still there. And what have you. And you know, at those times, you know, they had, you know, they had their mixture of culture, but it wasn't as diverse as Richard C. Lee. Because like I said, it was an experiment what they were doing. You're right. We had I think uh Yale University had a lot to do with it because we had quite a few of the instructors and teachers, whatever, who were from, you know, their grad students from Yale and stuff. He had a teacher's college there in New Haven. It was called Southern Connecticut State University at the time. I think it was called Uncle Ronnie had his own shirts. Yeah, well, because his his his wife, his first wife, mother of his children, she was that's where she graduated from. He had actually went there. He managed Levon's course was there. Uncle Levon, yeah. And so it was called back then, it was called New Haven's Teachers College before it became Southern. Gotcha. And so they would come, you know, they were they went school to be teachers. You went there, you were gonna be a teacher. That's it, and that's what they did. So, you know, that's the type of school I, you know, I that's not a normal one. No, it was interesting, you know, because they were they were diverse in their teaching and what have you, and you know, you got you had gotten experiences, whereas I don't where they don't do this nowadays, where you every other week or two, three times a month, you experienced uh life. Your education was about life pretty much. So you take field trips. Sometimes you'd have two field trips in a week. Dang. Where you'd go to places, you know, and you know, we'd go to New York City and stuff like that. We'd go to Boston, we'd, you know. We see what's going on instead of just talking about it or hearing about it and what have you. So that's how that was in school, you know, in the school system up there versus of that time versus schools of today. Put everything on a computer, and then you gotta figure it out for yourself. And if you know about it, it's because you dug deep into it through the computer, but did you actually touch it, feel it, and see and hold it and experience it?

SPEAKER_02 26:30

So that's interesting, man. That's a totally different, like you all were basically you were basically doing college type learning in a high school format.

SPEAKER_00 26:41

Well, you know, you know what it was, what I found out years ago. I was listening to this is when I was a teenager, I was listening to a sermon that Minister Lewis Farcon was giving. Uh-huh. And he was talking about how the schools were changing and they're not the middle schools and the high schools and stuff were changing, and how when they went to school in his era, you only went up to what they call the 11th grade back then. But when you graduated from the 11th grade back then, you had the same education as somebody who may have had a three or four-year college education. Yeah, that's the point, yeah. And what have you, because they taught you about geography and they taught you about economics, and they taught you you had to take language, you know, four years, you know, like I took language for three years, you know, and you know, you took math four years, and you took, you know, three years of science, you know, you had to take, you know, these things. Whereas that's not a requirement now, and what have you.

SPEAKER_02 28:07

So that's what people talking about. They always talk about, and this is a this is a uh uh a parenthood thing, but they talk about proper education and dumbing down. Like they literally, they did it seems like there's more, but it's so watered down.

SPEAKER_00 28:20

Well, see what it was. Here's what I believe what they did in education. They pretty much tried to go into the same groove as the Asian man did with his education, especially you know, China and Japan and India, where they taught reputation. Repetition repetition. Yes, if they kept. And so they they'll train you for one thing, and you kept doing that one thing, and you keep doing that one thing over and over again. Yeah. And you got it down packed. That one thing. That one thing, you're a master of it. But what happened, they weren't expecting the indigo children, as you guys are part of, and what have you, to show up and say, Oh no, I got a mind of my own. I, you know, I can think. Yeah. That's yeah. And see, what it was was your parent, you know, us as parents of my generation, there were a lot of us who did teach children to think. And we allowed them to think. Never tried to dictate to them you go this way, you go that way. No, they got a mind. They're gonna think for themselves because sooner or later, when they get older, they're gonna say, why didn't Dad let me do this? You'll you'll never be able to say that because you're right. Have your imagination, it's yours, you know. Yeah, because you know, 10, 20 years later, I'm you know, if I controlled or directed your path, you'd still be looking for me to direct your path because I never learned how to do it for you. You knew which way you wanted to go. I, you know, I can make suggestions, I can guide you, but I can't tell you how you're gonna drink the water. You might want to use a straw, you know. You know, so that is true.

SPEAKER_02 30:24

And I guess just the pivot in the um conversation, and I know it is it being Father's Day. I have to ask this because Kevin finally hit this milestone, and my brother hit this milestone as well. And our co-host Mike hit this milestone also. But what was it like becoming a dad for the first time? Because I know Kevin's a first-time dad, Mike's a first-time dad, and my brother she are first-time fathers. And this is yeah, this is Father's Day for us. So how is it? How was that?

SPEAKER_00 30:53

Oh, like I said, it was, it was, it was, it was heavy. It was it was an experience that uh, you know, you don't, it's something you don't forget. Yeah, and you know, I remember, you know, being there when Kevin was being born, and that long head of his popped up. I had to put that in there. But yeah, you know, at first wake up and read, this is serious business. And I always remembered, like I was getting ready to tell you, you know, I had this relationship with my father, when we talked about everything. And at least have conversations. It didn't make a difference what it was. I'd ask him anything. Yeah. And he'd tell me anything, he'd tell me, you know. And uh, like I said, I didn't know whether he had this relationship with my brothers. I don't think so. Because I guess maybe because I was the youngest, but I'd asked, you know, what it was to be a father and what does that mean, being father? And he told me, he said, you know. He said, when you when you're you uh you're gonna be a father, he said, you gotta wanna be a father. He said, you just don't be a father. He said some people go out there and put babies out there. Yeah. But he said, you gotta wanna be a father. See, each one of you, you weren't just didn't just show up. You guys weren't a surprise. Yeah. We knew you were coming. No, we we actually planned each one of you coming. Yeah, okay. I knew when you came out, I knew when you came out, and I knew when Rasheed came out. Yeah, yeah. We planned that because the method of birth control that we used, you know, was what they called back in the day the rhythm method. Yeah, based it on the calendar and stuff. You knew exactly when. And uh yeah, I asked my father a question and he told me, yeah, he said, you gotta wanna be a father, to be a father. He said, you know, it's just not be, you know, just not having babies. He said, you gotta want to be because there's a lot that comes with it. So the thing of it is to want to be in that position to guide someone else through life and what have you. Whether they take your guidance, that's gonna be up to them. But you put that guidance out there and you let them live, you know, because they're gonna be responsible for their lives. That's it.

SPEAKER_02 33:36

That's a heavy point that you raise with that. That's one of the things I always think about. I don't have a child yet, but I don't looking forward to having a child. It's just like you said, having that ability to guide somebody without forcing. Right. That's the the balance that you're looking to. And that's a hard thing.

SPEAKER_00 33:56

That's like art to itself. Yeah, you're your guide, your your thing is to guide them, help them through what they need. You educate them about life, and you let them see life with through, you know, you guiding them, but you let them make choices if they decide, like you guys always used to come in and say, dad, question. Yeah. This is what I always say.

unknown 34:30

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 34:31

And dad question. But see, I couldn't say, No, I can't answer it, or no, I'm not gonna answer it. Because I knew who I was, because I used to always, I didn't say dad, question, I always used to say, Dad, I want to ask you something. Or something like that. We'd be talking, or we'd just be, we might be watching a game or something. And something just popped in my head, and I just, what is this, that, and the other? What's A, B, C, D, F, you know. And he'd start talking. And that was his, you know, wisdom coming out. And he'd, you know, let me know. So that's what that was, you know, and that's how, you know, it's it I wanted to be a father. I didn't just become a father. I wanted to be. Oh. And hopefully I did the right thing in wanting to be and doing the right thing of raising men because, like I told you, I wasn't when you guys were little, I wasn't raising boys. Nah. I tell you, plenty of times, yeah. I tell you, I'm raising men. I ain't raising no boys. I'm not raising boys. So that's what they must get from the father. The father's hand and spirit must, you know, seep into them from a distance, whatever that distance may be. And if it your guidance was right in doing so, in your rearing of them, it will it would have been cultivated in them to do what it is they need to do as parents. And so far from my two grandchildren alive that I see, even though uh Rashid's not there on the regular, and Kevin is close by with my granddaughter. I know Rasheed knows how to be a father. Did you ever notice that? Yeah, he does. He's right on it. Yeah, he is.

SPEAKER_02 36:50

That's wild. Yeah, he has it. He has it down so far.

SPEAKER_03 36:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:54

It was like it was put in there, it's like it was instilled.

SPEAKER_00 36:57

Yeah, early. So, you know. So, you know, in doing so, he that that has a lot, I feel, to do with maybe how I reared him. But that's in you, and that's part of the inheritance. If you're gonna father, you father.

SPEAKER_02 37:16

Mm-hmm. I feel you on that one, and that's something I know we have, especially with our our generation dealing with a lot of the new, put it like this, the modern social effects and changes. You do have a lot of folk who don't get and don't have fatherhood or fathers around them, or people to give that type of energy and influence. It must be respected when you do have that energy around you because it's necessary, you gotta have balance. You must have balance. And so I've seen the outcome both ways, how it works with and without. And it's always this has always been better with, in my opinion. But another thing, and this is a cool thing, man. What's your favorite thing about being a father? My favorite thing about being a father. You gotta pick one. One, one thing.

SPEAKER_00 38:03

I know there's many things, but well, you know, I'm gonna tell you just like this. It's gratifying to know that we've gotten to this point in our relationship as father and sons that we were able to sit down and do what we're doing here today. You know, that's something I don't know how many fathers actually get to do this sitting in their home and what have you, but you know, this is an experience for me, as it is for you guys. You know, you've gotten to this place in life where you're able to do this, and yeah, thankfully through the grace of the creator and the guidance I give you, you have the thought, you had the thought and the ability to be able to do such. So that's true.

SPEAKER_02 38:55

Yeah, you know, I will say that. I will let y'all know too. Our father is very influential on some of our quote unquote talents and gives things that we're interested in. Because as we're sitting here right now talking, we got some nice smooth jazz music playing in the background. I know I love jazz music. We grew up listening to this all the time, and I'm telling you, the effects of it on us have been nothing but positive. And again, that comes to that influence and that effect of being a good father, man. And I'm telling you, man, that is much appreciated. Kudos to you. Like you said, we gotta give your flowers while you're here. Ooh, another thing. Um, ooh, could you tell some folks tell tell the uh the listeners a little bit about your your artistic um leanings? My artistic leanings? Yes, because they're gonna hear this side of positive. As far as with with photography and poet poetry, etc. And the love for music. Because I like people to hear this so they can understand why we act the way we act, because they think we're strange. Oh.

SPEAKER_00 39:50

Well, what what what it is, I I've I've written, I don't know how many. I I've written poetry since I was in high school. A lot of people don't know it. A lot of family members don't know. And a lot of stuff I do have, you guys don't know about. But when I pass one day, you guys are gonna find this stuff out because there there are I'm serious, I have some boxes and some notes and what have you, things I've written just off of from off of my heart from back in the day, you know, since I was a young man. And art has all, you know, art and music and culture has always been something for me because it lets the imagination, you know, create and explore for itself because you're a thinker. You were meant to be a thinker, you're put here as a thinking being and in doing so I couldn't ever just look at one form of art, just like, you know, when I'm cooking and what have you. That's a form of art. That's you know, those are my creations, and so, you know, and being creative and having a creative niche, I guess you say. When I did in my writings and the choice of music I listened to and the music that I would love to have seen back in the day that I went and experienced.

SPEAKER_03 41:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:42

And I've experienced quite a bit of I've seen everybody from uh yeah, I've seen Michael Jackson. I've never seen James Brown live. I seen Michael Jackson and, you know, Led Zeppelin's and Alice Cooper's and other people don't know.

SPEAKER_02 41:59

No, because they don't understand why we act the way we act.

SPEAKER_00 42:02

And, you know, I I've seen, you know, some heavy jazz artists, you know, I seen Herbie Hancock and, you know, Kenny G and Najee and Grover Washington Jr. And I seen the Funkadelics, or all of them, you know, Ohio players, uh, OJs, and Philadelphia International as funky as can be. You want to talk about some people. Motown was something. Yeah. But Philadelphia International, Philly is serious. Yeah, bad. They had their number. Because you you they allowed and really allowed the as far as music goes and all of their productions, the that influence of what was called RB, because jazz was originally called RB. It wasn't called jazz. No, it was RB. Yeah, it's rhythm and blue. Yeah. And that's what they put through on everything they did. You know, if you ever just go listen to grab you some Philly music, all that stuff. Everybody from the stylistics to, you know, Harold Melvin's blue notes and Lou Rawls and people like that. You know, that's why, you know, groups like Blue, you know, Blue Magic and you know, the Manhattan, people like that. That was all that Philly stuff. Yeah. So yeah, so that's I have a love and passion for music and old movies and things like that. Was it film film Noir? Oh, black and white. Yeah, I'm an old black and white movie person and what I think just because the artistic form of you know, the actors and what have you back then who were really working each other in their art. Because acting is a talent, you know, that, you know, you have to uh persuade somebody's imagination to really see what you're seeing and feel what you're feeling, and you are gonna project that so they can yeah, but if you're good at it and if you're really dedicated to it, you can. You can make somebody believe you're a killer. You ain't lying. You ain't lying. Oh, seriously, you have people here in real life. Yes, indeed. That tells you how good some of them are, and they will tell the story, and the story will be told, and you know, you will appreciate the story just by the the quality of this person taking the time and effort to actually display something to you that makes you believe it.

SPEAKER_02 44:57

That's crazy. That's that's the right way to think about that.

SPEAKER_00 44:59

So, you know, that's how that works. So, yeah, I'm so that's why, you know, art and you know, just like paintings and things of that nature, you know, you see what I have on my wall. Uh but I can take a picture in that and put it on an episode for the fit for the you know, I I I don't have half of our artwork on the wall. It's not even now, yeah. I know I know that. I have I have some put away. That's the coolest piece right there. Speaking of well, this? Yeah, man. You know, I remember that from days. Man, that's your grandmothers. That was I I we had that in the house since I was about seven, eight years old. Seven or it's been around since since we were seven, eight years old. So it's older than me. So yeah. So I don't know who did it, but there's a name on it. There is, yeah. Yeah. And that's actually leather on wood. And uh but yeah, so you know, I've you know, there's certain pieces I collect there. You know, I I have a lot of cultural stuff. Some black artists and what have you. I guess uh I can't even remember who they are, uh, but I some of them I've met, some of them I hadn't. This is uh over the past 20 years I may have gotten. And then that cool picture over there with the Oh, yeah, that's that that was a Father's Day gift of about 15 years ago. Man, that's so classic, man. Such a good picture. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:36

For the fatherhood of the child.

SPEAKER_00 46:38

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 46:39

And that picture, yeah. Say it again.

SPEAKER_00 46:42

Exactly, exactly. That's gonna have to be a good idea. It's just showing fatherhood, period. But that's the pity. Yeah, you know, for us, you know, it has to be, you know, a strengthening thing that gives us some power to know that we can develop and bring and cultivate, you know, strong people into society. And that's the thing, you know, about being a father, you know. You know, if you're a true mother and a mindful person you want to bring to society, you know, something society can, or someone to society that will, you know, reflect what it is you truly are. Because, you know, what you guys do reflect who I am. You know, it's true down the line. So what you do will reflect, you know, on your children and who they are and what have you. So that's why I hoped I always did, you know, right thing by you guys and stuff, you know.

SPEAKER_02 48:04

Most definitely. I remember what was it? I remember you telling us one time. You said, if you ever have any issues or if anything's gone wrong, he said, just always come back to the source. Come sit, come talk me, and you can figure out how to get it back where you're supposed to be at. That's where it comes from. That's just some advice for everybody who's out here who's a new father. Just remember that. Because I'm telling you, it was pivotal for us. It was necessary. I know I took advantage of it many times. I had to go back to the source and ask for assistance.

SPEAKER_01 48:31

Yeah, I know. Yeah. Especially, um, I know just for me. I know, just when I, especially when I first went off to school. Yeah. Oh, many more than just the social adjustments and the life changes. Especially those first two years. I used to always have to come back to the source. The first two years to be. Yeah. Because you're the first two. Yeah, no, you just like to get any pay for everything. Essentially. Essentially. Essentially. So yeah, so I've always was kind of the one to venture out. And that's what makes the father, the fatherhood thing very interesting now, too, for me. Because I'm not the first one. No, you aren't. Yeah. So it's interesting. Yeah, so it's interesting. So it's like I have it's on a way I kind of have my younger brother now to kind of look at for like advice and guidance on some things. Yeah, so it's kind of neat, like I said, change of perspective. It's good not always having to be the lead.

SPEAKER_02 49:16

Sometimes it's interesting. I like to put a stress on the kid, just so y'all know. I like to put stress on this kid. Because I know he can handle it. I know he can handle it. He ain't got a problem. He ain't gonna break.

SPEAKER_01 49:25

And that's the dope thing about, like I said, what does it do with the podcast too? It's just the fact that this is something where we have a team of people that we do, and everybody has equal talents to where we can kind of switch off and we can work with each other. And that's the dope thing. It's not like you have one main, like you have one person that produces everything, one person that does all the interviews, one person that contacts, you know, contacts people to interview, one person to promote. So it's like we all kind of equally share it and we all have those gifts. And so that's what makes it fun to do it. And it gives us the ability and the versatility to have these types of episodes.

SPEAKER_02 49:58

Exactly. And I'll tell you too, man, one thing growing up and having brothers and the way that our father raised us, one thing I'm big on sharing the pain. So if we gotta do anything, like I'll tell you, hey, everybody putting their piece, we're gonna make it easier and lighter on everybody. Many hands light work. Come on. Um, but I do have uh, we got two more questions before we finish up the day. These are interesting questions. I guess this is the this is the one I guess that you considered the this is the hot button question right here. Name one thing you wish you could have changed about raising us.

SPEAKER_00 50:38

I wish I could have been in a better situation financially. Because there are a couple of things that I because I didn't have the full support of anyone else, pretty much, you know, is on me. So my finances would be stretched to their limits and what have you. And be, I don't know, I'm not gonna say, but I could say being a man of color, there were some opportunities there that were given to me, and then being a man, a single father, yes. That weren't given to me. You don't give them, they don't give them. Yeah, I couldn't get because I was working. And as a single father, you know, a single father was working, especially here in the state of South Carolina. You get you know, you don't get any help. Not at all. No, they won't help you. Now, if you were a woman, they'd help a woman. Oh, yeah, all the way. Oh yeah, they'd give her food stamps and all this, you know, they'll get money from the father or whatever, you know. They'd help them, but they didn't give that to a man. Men don't get that. So, and you know, that didn't, you know, phase me. I went and got what I had to get. Exactly. But it would have been. Yes. But there was, you know, I there were a few times, there were a couple of things that I didn't get to do as far as raising you, as far as acquiring more education for myself, you know, formal education, I guess, and the financial gains that would have come from it, because you know, there are a couple of times when I started a few programs, and you know, as far as school goes, that I had to let go because I it was either work, you know, or as an old saying, your grandmother used to say, either root, pig, or die. So wow, wow. Root pig or the pig had to root.

SPEAKER_02 53:02

Yeah, there you go. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 53:04

Okay, so I had to go ahead and root, I had to work. So that was something, you know, at times, you know, I hey if it meant me having two jobs, I had to have it. Because, you know, originally when I came south, from what I was accustomed to, you know, earning back home in Connecticut, heck, I had to work three jobs. There was one time I had four. Wow. Because that's how unfair, you know, economically they were paying people down here, you know. Yeah, it was I know it was four, but maybe zero. Oh, it was crazy. Yeah, you know. I'm serious. When I first moved South, you know what the minimum wage was in South Carolina?

SPEAKER_02 53:49

It had to still be at um, at that time, it had to still be around four dollars and no. It wasn't at what was it?

SPEAKER_00 53:54

It was 275. 275. 1988, it was 275. Gosh, good gracious. And what have you, and when these people told me when I applied for a job and I asked them how much, you know, I was going to earn what job was paying and what have you, and they told me $3.75 an hour. Now remember, I was making $5.50 when I was in high school.

SPEAKER_02 54:30

Good God. Okay. I was making five.

SPEAKER_00 54:32

Well, I told you I was working at the Coliseum, and you know.

SPEAKER_02 54:37

This is before $7 minimum wage. Right.

SPEAKER_00 54:40

This is I, you know, I was making $5.50. I was in high school an hour and what have you. And that was in the 70s. And I was, like I said, I was still in high school. So the that trade-off, you know, that was one thing you just don't know how many times I almost I turned around and took you guys back to Connecticut. Yeah. But the, you know, the and the whole scheme of it, the culture was changing so drastically after I moved away from Connecticut after about three or four years. And I went back on a couple of occasions. It was turning ugly up there, really. You know, I seen it, you know, because of the taxes shot up so high, unemployment was crazy up there, and the culture was changing so much, you know. The culture in the sense of like the people's cul- the culture of the people. The people socially and what have you, they weren't caring anymore. They became callous. You know, the drug influence in that, you know, in the Northeast at that time. That was after all of the, you know, drug peddling from the government, you know, at the Iran Contra. Oh, yeah. You know, stuff Reagan actually put into effect him and Ollie North and these his boys and what have you. Stuff people thought we were trying to get the city. Yeah. But yeah, okay. It affected the Northeast Corridor big time. That was before it even hit LA. It had hit City. So this is fight early. They gambled that stuff into New York City and Boston first. Gotcha. Then it went out to LA. It went out, it didn't go out to LA until the after the 80s. It was in the 90s when that stuff really hit LA. Gosh. It was hitting in the 80s in the Northeast. New York. Harlem. Gone. Harlem's a different place now compared to the 80s.

SPEAKER_02 57:00

There's an artist that did a series on that too. It was like, it was, I think it was called, I think it was called Harlem. It was either Harlem or Brooklyn. I forget. Kevin may remember this, but it was like Harlem before crack, I think it was. And he had all these pictures you showing the neighborhood. It was like a real neighborhood. Oh, yeah. A lot of people were so like you said, the people were in Kelsey were clean, cut everybody was looking good. The people had they had their own businesses. The neighborhoods were in order and stuff like that. And then after.

SPEAKER_00 57:24

Oh, Harlem, Harlem and Brooklyn, you know, places like Brooklyn Heights and what have you. That was a area, you know. That was a well-to-do. He got a lot of doctors and what have you. The Cosby show. You know, that was in Brooklyn Heights. Yeah. And, you know, you know, when, you know, Bill Clinton came back and changed some things up in Harlem and what have you, with his influence and putting things there. Yeah. But yeah, it had, it had really because, you know, me and my brother Gary, we would go to Harlem and New York City. You know, I'm I'm eight years old. He's 12. I'm, you know. I'll just ride up in Amazon. No, we get on the train. You get on a train. Just jump on the train. That's where it started in New Haven. And went from New Haven into New York. That's crazy, man. And um should only cost what? Probably about, I don't think we paid any more than about three or four dollars around trip. We get on and ride and what have you. We, you know, we take our shoes, shine boxes and stuff with us, you know, sometimes we're a little hustle. Hustle. No, you eight, nine years old, you make making forty or fifty dollars.

SPEAKER_02 58:45

You're right, yeah. You said we have that money, yeah. You're right. Exactly. That's nice.

SPEAKER_00 58:50

But I I had it. And then I was getting allowance. Wow. So you know, we'd go down there, all we'd do pretty much is buy a slice of pizza and watch people watch. And we'd shop and buy things we buy by radios and things like that. Yeah, you know, we just nobody bother you. You just part of the woodwork. Yes, you know.

SPEAKER_02 59:14

Just walking around you.

SPEAKER_00 59:15

You just yeah, you're just sitting there watching everybody else, you know. They think they don't know where where you're from. They're busy. Yeah, that was that culture, you know, you know, you know, because my father taught us to do that, to get on the train, because he's the one that took us. And what have you didn't care for the bus. He'd get in the train. Get on the train, sure. You ride down to DC in a heartbeat or what have you, you know, and go shopping and stuff like that. And that's what we used to do. I'm talking about even around the Christmas time, you know. Go down there and go shopping. Sure, you go, cause you can go to uh places like back then, you know, you can go to the Garment District and Delancey Street, and you can get, you know, especially like jeans and stuff. We used to get jeans, you know, shoot, we take $20. Yeah, me and Gary would have, you know, four or five pairs of jeans apiece, you know. $20. Good. Yeah, good, good. Good guy. All they wanted the money. Yeah. That's what stuff was coming in and being made at and stuff. Stuff was there, you know. Yeah, but because, you know, the retailers, that's where the retailers got it from, and they'd sell it to the stores. And then they'd stores, you know, they'd sell them for $25 a piece. But they actually only cost them about, you know, two or three dollars. So you can get four pair for, you know, ten dollars. That is wild.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:44

Well, man, I have this is the last question, quote unquote, in our little question part, of course, that we have to ask him. What's one piece of advice that you would give to new dads? What do they need to know about what they're about to embark in that would give them a little setup of preparation for what they're about to see?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:08

Okay. What is the one thing I'm gonna tell you like this? I don't give advice. You don't give advice, don't take advice. Think for yourself, think about the wisdom that was instilled in you. You know the truth. Everybody knows the truth, you know. This is the thing a lot of people don't realize. They know the truth. You know right from wrong. You're at the place you become a father, you know right from wrong. So you know the truth. Live by the truth. If your child is born a little princess, make sure she stays the princess. That's true. If your child is born a prince, make sure he stays the prince. You know, don't change him based on what society trying to cultivate your sus your people or you as a person or your children as people to be something else. True. True. But just remember you can always go back and search history and discover for whence something has come. Because remember, there are always someone trying to change an outcome of what is traditionally considered to be societal to suit themselves to make a dollar. That's what a lot of it's about. Somebody's trying to hustle you, yeah. So don't take anyone's advice as a gospel. Remember, the gospel was a word that was put originally in parables, so you didn't understand it. But you can look at it. And if you know the truth, and if it looked crooked to you, damn it, it's crooked. Don't sit up and say, oh no, that's as straight as an arrow, and it and it got hooks and curves and angles in it. No, no, no, no, no. Tell the truth, you know? That's what it comes down to. Tell them the truth. Always tell the truth to your kids. Because you know I never told you guys to believe in fairy tales.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:43

Never. I remember when you heard our heart about wrestling. I'm watching Rock. I'm up here crying and stuff. You said, Man, why are you crying? Yeah, I was in the seventh, eighth grade. It hurt my heart, man.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:57

Yeah. It was all fake. It was all fake. It's a facade.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:01

You can't believe in fairy tales, you know, and you can't fool your kids into that, you know. Never give the, you know, so always tell them the truth and be truthful with them. And when advice is given to you, you know, you can look up the source and what have you. And if it's real and if it's the truth, you have a choice. Yeah. But you know, you don't have to take it at face value. You can and always, you know, if I tell you something, I don't want to call it advice, but you look it up and find out for yourself. And you and if it's true, you know you can go with it if it's the truth. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:43

You've always been big about that. You can do what? Search it yourself, research it yourself, get that information.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:47

Find it for yourself. Yeah. Because you gotta walk on this planet on your own two feet. What's up, mama? Yeah. You know she's a heads.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:00

Yep, hanging out.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:01

So we have Savannah, we had a nice little studio audience today, y'all. Yep. So if you hear just the random giggles and the yells, just realize that's Savannah. So that's my daughter. She's chilling, having a good time. So she's part of this episode too. This is what the episode is about, essentially. So of course. But one of the things I want to go back to, and I and I and I was talking about this earlier online. I posted about this, especially what you said about finding the truth and then just trying to do and finding it for your own sake, and not necessarily just trusting what others say. I think one of the things nowadays we really get into trouble about is we have what they call I call it broken clock syndrome. Okay, it's a big oblivion. And so, you know, a broken clock, of course, you know, it's right. Broken clock's right two times out of the day. Exactly. Right? Yeah. But what you see a lot of nowadays in society, especially with social media, you see a whole bunch of people following people based off of this broken clock method. Yes. So it's like if they got one or two points that that hit with them, that resonate with them, they go with everything else that person says, even though that that those points may not be true. It may not be constructive. And that trips me out because you see it all the time, just with different, just different areas of life. Even people who claim not to be experts, people follow them just because they hit on two, one or two main points that resonate with them. Yes. And I'm glad that you said that and you brought that to light because part of you thinking for yourself and knowing the truth is you'll realize that not everybody has, not one person has all of the truth. Like there's no way none of us can have all of that. So you gotta go out and you gotta search for yourself and you gotta learn on your own in a lot of cases. Now, whatever information you get, of course, is you're always welcome to come back and share it with others, you know, that you love and care about, but essentially, nobody has all the truth. Do not. And that's where the whole concept, that's where I come with the broken clock thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:00

Right. That's why let me just leave it at as your grandmother and grandfather used to say. Horse's head is long, but he doesn't know everything.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:17

Man, you all, that's gonna wrap it up for the day. I want to thank all of our listeners for tuning today to our special Father's Day episode of the Hilltop Glove Podcast. Again, this is DJ and Watt with my brother Skip and our father Kevin. We got Savannah here holding it up for us as the audience. And we just want to wish you all a special and very safe and prosperous year. But also, man, peace, peace, and shout out to all the fathers out there, new and continuing fathers out here who are doing their thing, making sure they're taking care of their families, strengthening them and propping them up so that they can go out here and be their best out here in this strange world that we have to deal with. So, once again, shout out from the Hilltop Glodcast. Happy Father's Day. That's it for today's episode of the Hilltop Club Podcast. Make sure to subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, and other platforms. Also follow us on Instagram and Facebook and Hilltop Club.