SPEAKER_03 1:45

Good morning, good morning, good morning. Welcome back to another episode of the Hilltop Globe Podcast. I'm your host, Anmar, aka DJ, and what with Skip and Mike. We don't have Tamaia today, but it's all good. Everybody say hello to the audience. Excellent, excellent. Today's episode, we have a special guest, Mr. Kenny Gardner. Kenny is a Charleston-based attorney, youth coach, and family man. He is an attorney at Butler Snow where he practices tort law, transportation, commercial, and specialized litigation law. Kenny received the 2021, oh yeah, 2021 Honors College Distinguished Alumni Award from the College of Charleston and was selected as a member of State Farm's Inaugural Rising Stars Academy in 2019. He also has been recognized as one as by the best lawyers in America, America wants to watch. Thank you so much for joining us today, Kenny. I was butchering up that beginning. I don't know why I did. I've been reading it many times. How are you doing today?

SPEAKER_01 2:53

Excellent.

SPEAKER_03 2:53

Again, I want to thank you for coming back today. I know uh we had an excellent uh interview last time so that the audience knows if some things sound funny or like we already know each other very well. Technically we do, but we couldn't keep our other interview. It was amazing. But we're gonna do this again because we want these people to get this information, especially our audience, uh, when it comes to questions and information regarding law and how law works and how it moves. And just starting very easy, if you could give some folk a little, our audience, particularly a little understanding of your background and at what age did you decide you wanted to start practicing?

SPEAKER_01 3:28

So I have wanted to be an attorney since I saw the episode of the Cosby show where they put Theo on trial for telling lies and half-truths. Um so from that moment, seeing just you know how that was, I was like, oh, I need I need to be a lawyer. And then that was cemented by my dad in 1996 was sentenced to 20 years in prison. And so it made it very real for me to become a lawyer. And so that was kind of the driving force behind it. And you know, by the grace of God, I was able to get through law school, you know, start practicing. And in in 2016 or 17, I represented him at his first parole hearing, which he was granted parole. So after 20 years, he was he was able to come home by the grace of God. Man, you know, I I just showed up and that that's a lot of my job is showing up somewhere and talking.

SPEAKER_03 4:23

I love that story because like to think about like being able to help out one of your parents, especially in a situation where they they vitally need help and it's a specialized situation, man. That had to feel like that had to feel extremely gratifying in the sense of doing a favor, like like doing what you were training for, that thing that you love so much, being able to use that skill to actually assist somebody in your family, and per to say even better, a parent. Like, how did that feel?

SPEAKER_01 4:52

Well, I mean, uh, it it was a bit surprising because you know, any lawyer worth his salt will underpromise and try to over-deliver. So, you know, there was there was no expectation, you know, that uh that I had that he would be granted parole. He he was in prison for murder, so it was a violent crime. And so, you know, generally speaking, they don't let them out um quite that often. So we were able to to put together a strategy. Um, my wife assisted me, she's an attorney. So we were, you know, the the the victim's family was actually in favor of him being released. And so we put all that together and made a presentation to the parole board, and you know, they asked him questions and we gave honest answers. So when we found out, you know, we were I was sitting at a table away from him because they called him back up. And when I saw his head drop, I didn't know what to think. Then he turns towards towards us and smiles, and so we were just all elated. And you know, my my oldest brother was there, and you know, hit he and my dad were were so close, they just started weeping. And so it was just one of it was a very happy occasion, you know, and and the close of a you know, a very difficult chapter for not only him, you know, I can't imagine being in prison for 20 years, but also us, you know, his family, you know, knowing that he gets to come home and we get to kind of re-establish that relationship. So it was incredibly rewarding.

SPEAKER_03 6:20

Yeah, man. I I know one of the things I've always heard about prison, like if you have loved ones or family that's in prison, is it's not just them serving time. That family is also serving that time.

SPEAKER_01 6:30

Oh, right. I mean, I spent, you know, almost 20 years worth of weekends to, you know, going there and and sitting for a whole day. And it's you know, those prisons are never closed. So you're generally traveling about an hour or so to get there, and then you have to go and get searched, you have to go through, you know, you go through the locked doors. Yes. And it, you know, and you you can't get to them, and they can't get to you the way you want to. And what people don't understand is that if you have folks in prison, it's best to be there because if you know the people who run it don't think you have family, they'll treat you like an animal. And so, you know, I had to make several calls up there when there were issues, you know, on behalf of my dad to get things straight. And so it's really important to have those people on the outside to continue to anchor you and give you some protection as much as they can.

SPEAKER_03 7:20

That is, and that's so wild hearing that coming from uh from a lawyer and somebody who knows the legal process explaining that that is a part of the system, that that treatment. Because most people wouldn't believe you when you say that it's not how they do, you know, it's must be doing something bad in there. But yeah, that's interesting.

SPEAKER_00 7:35

And the system half runs on little bullshit.

SPEAKER_03 7:38

That's crazy though. Like you didn't think you'd have to step in and actually make a call to tell people how a problem. That's that's wild, man. That is wild.

SPEAKER_01 7:47

Well, it's yeah, you know, it's and it's a it's a human thing, right? Like, you know, people think of people in prison as people who have, you know, they they've done wrong and so they don't deserve to be treated like humans. And it's it's quite the opposite. We're we're gonna be judged harshest by those that we treat the you know the the worst. So, you know, those folks that are in prison that we ignore and that we allow to be treated this way, or you know, a lot of these prisons in South Carolina haven't had any kind of work to the actual physical structure since 1992. And so they're living in dilapidated conditions and they're overcrowded by mean by by multiples. You know, that's why you see all of those kind of instances of riots and things like that in prisons, because there's so many prisoners and not enough um people to really care or you know, supervise them. I mean, we all know prison is is you know, it's not you're not supposed to have fun there, but you know, there's a basic level of human decency that that seems to get lost in the process, you know, and and and it's tragic, but it's it's a real thing.

SPEAKER_03 8:56

I guess moving in and further into your profession, and like I said, um learning the profession, doing the work, putting down the bricks to build that house. How what were some ways that you that you started your preparation for your career? And like, and and how did you know you needed to do those things?

SPEAKER_01 9:15

Well, so you know, in the back of your head, when you're young and you're watching the lawyer shows, you know, you just you know, you just think you have to be the you know the smartest and you have to, you know, be clever and all that stuff. And that's certainly part of it. But you know, when I Yeah, exactly. And you know, it it's funny because you watch those shows and you go, well, I don't want to ever lose a case either. But when you become a lawyer, you realize very quickly that you don't win or lose cases, your clients win or lose cases, but you're just representing them, and so you learn not to take it as personal as you otherwise would. But when I was in college, when I really started honing in on kind of getting there, I met with you know a polypsci professor, and I got set up in some free LSAT courses that were offered at the College of Charleston. And the LSAT is basically the law SAT that you have to take to get into law school, and it it's weird because it has it's it's similar to the SAT in that it has reading comprehension because that's really important, and then it has what's called logic problems, and it's kind of like math, but not really. It's really, really weird, and I hated logic problems. So you do that, you take the LSAT, and then when you get to law school, you know, they teach you the substantive stuff of the law. You know, you learn, you know, what a tort is, or you learn what a burglary is and what makes up those crimes and the elements you have to prove to be the be successful in defending or prosecuting one of those things. But the most important skills that I learned, one, reading. You got to be able to read a lot, consume a lot of information, and then be able to digest it and then spit it back out in a way that's more succinct and persuasive because you're trying to convince somebody to do something that you want them to do. Whether it's a judge, whether it's a jury, whether it's, you know, I've had presentations or in front of you know town councils, you're just trying to convince someone to agree with your opinion and to, you know, rule in your favor. And then writing, you know, you there's a lot of writing, there's a lot of briefing that you submit to court so that you know they're aware of you know the issues that you think are important. And then getting up and speaking, you know, you guys are doing podcasts, so you're used to talking, but you'd be surprised how many folks are not used to talking in front of people or any about anything substantive. Um so getting up and opening opening your mouth and saying, hey, you know, I have this to say is very important. So any opportunity that I had to do any of those three things, you know, I committed myself to doing it and getting better. And even to this day, you know, I still commit myself to that trade. And because before I get up and do anything, I'm always very nervous. Seriously, and you know, do you oh boy, like the butterflies are wild. And you you're thinking in the back of your head, man, I'm gonna jack this all up. And you get up and you open your mouth. And the funny thing is, is very rarely do I ever remember what I say after I've said it. Oh wow. Once it's out, it's out, and I move on to the next thing.

SPEAKER_00 12:24

So you're the reading, the writing, script everything out entirely. You you kind of have a an outline and then you you go from there. Is that how right?

SPEAKER_01 12:34

So, you know, different people do it different ways. My my way and the way I was taught to do it is that you know, first you want to know your case backwards and forwards. Right. So you you consume all of that information, you make sure that you know it. In fact, you know, you know it to the point where you can tell the judge, hey, if you look in the record on this page, you'll find that, and then you start spitting out your argument. Right.

SPEAKER_00 12:57

Right. Because that's another thing about law, is most of it is all based off of decisions that have been made in the past because nobody wants to be that one that makes that that uh game changer, really.

SPEAKER_01 13:07

You know, so that's exactly right. I mean, the the interesting thing about the law is that no one's trying to hide the ball from you. You're not having to reinvent the will. It's all off precedence, it's all off, you know, that's what we use to argue things. Hey, in this case previously, that's similar to this case, the court ruled X. This is why you should rule the same way, or this is why this case is different than that case, or that you should rule Y. And so you really don't have to be incredibly clever or incredibly smart. You just have to be able to read and comprehend and make distinctions between points. Because again, a tort is a tort. So, you know, a personal injury is a personal injury, no matter where you go, but it's the ability to be able to be able to distinguish those things and to get up and explain why they're different or why they are the same kind of dictates your level of success.

SPEAKER_03 14:00

Man, I'm telling you, okay, so because I I think that leads into an issue that a lot of folks have when dealing with a law of legal situations, and this is big, like you keep you keep saying this reading and comprehension. I I think that's that's the big thing. Like, people are unable to comprehend what is going on and they're unable to digest the information.

SPEAKER_00 14:23

So well, and you're reading legalese too. I mean, like this is you know it's different.

SPEAKER_01 14:28

Well, the funny thing is that that you know, I put you know, here into here for sure. They don't mean anything. Like it's my goal as a lawyer is well, you know, it it's it's uh there's a lot of kind of showmanship in the practice of law, but my goal as a lawyer is to make things so low that even the goats can get it, right? Like I I want everybody to be able to understand what I'm saying because in understanding what I'm saying, they have a greater ability to agree with me. And so if I'm talking over people's heads, the first thing I'm gonna do is go, well, I don't trust that person. I don't even know what he's saying. So, you know, a lot of times I'm yeah, if I'm practicing an argument, I practice it with my non-lawyer friends or with my kids or non-lawyer relatives because I know that if they understand what I'm saying, any jury will know what I'm saying, any judge will know what I'm saying because I'm putting it in the simplest terms. That's a good point.

SPEAKER_03 15:28

Good Lord. I never thought about it like that. That is a great point. So you you aren't really trying to talk to those people who have an understanding of law in that upper weird legalese talk. You're you're really trying to convey your point to the layman.

SPEAKER_01 15:44

Right. Well, right, because if if a layman can get it, then a lawyer can get it, then a judge can get it. Like I'm breaking, I'm trying to break it down to its simplest form because you can always consume information up. You can't do it the reverse way. You know, if you don't understand it at a basic level, you're not gonna understand it at a higher level. And so if you can give them the base level and then build on that, you have a greater likelihood of success in trying to convince somebody to do something that they otherwise wouldn't want to do.

SPEAKER_03 16:15

So I guess that that really harps on this point. And I know um the misconceptions of lawyers or attorneys and how and how they operate. So, like when we're watching, like you were saying, watching these TV shows, and we see these lawyers using all this cool slick talk and moving around the court trying to get people to show motion and stuff like that, that's not what's going on, is it?

SPEAKER_01 16:37

Well, okay, so there's a difference. The big distinction between what happens on TV and what happens in real life is the timing. Nothing moves so fast that it can be resolved within an hour or 30 minutes. There's usually, you know, you you you request and seek extensions and are granted extensions a whole bunch of times. And in South Carolina at least, you don't co go on a trial docket, meaning your case isn't up for trial for at least a year. And then all of the other cases that are in front of yours would go before your. So it could be greater time than a year. But a lot of the persuasive things, you know, do ring true. So for instance, when I'm talking to a jury, I'm trying to prick at their emotions. I'm trying to get them to look at something the way that I want I look at something or the way that I think they should look at it. So, you know, your cadence, your pauses, your breaks, the words you use, all of those things come into play when you're talking to a jury. For instance, you know, if if there was an accident and you ask, you know, you know that there was 10 seconds between, you know, when somebody moved and then you know the collision happened. I might say a jury told the jury, you know, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, you know, you're gonna hear testimony that says it was 10 seconds, and then you go, you I stop, I look at my watch, and I wait 10 seconds. That pause sometimes right, and so they understand, you know, if I'm on the defense side, I'm saying you can avoid it. He could have avoided this accident. How do you, you know, and so that means something. So, you know, it those things are similar, and you know, and a lot of stuff I get from TV, you know, I think you take people's style and you mesh it together, and you know, you you develop your own. But you know, I pull from all kinds of places. I pull from you know hip hop music, I pull from law shows, I pull from you know, Dr. King a lot, Novel Max. You know, you take these overall principles because that's what trials are about, right? They're about these overarching themes. You're trying to create a theme and tell a story in a way that will make them agree with you. And so, you know, you you you get those things from many, many different places.

SPEAKER_03 19:00

Now, this is how to get to the um the nice part of the interesting part of conversation with some of this messy stuff that that's got that's going on. So, and I know we're just talking about misconceptions, looking at trials, how things run, and of course, the amount of time that usually goes in to trial how it should run. You have some very high-profile cases out here that we have talked about, some have already been concluded, but you have some that are still going on right now, including the ones, the one with Gilane Maxwell. I think it's very interesting how that's how that's happening moving along right now. But the way that the, and I put it like this, and I know the the Ahmad Aubert Aubrey um trial, which wasn't a trial by him, but the trial of the three men that they don't name, because I guess three names are harder than one, and then the Kyle Rittenhouse trial, the way that the public looked at, consumed, and understood those trials um was very interesting. And the the emotional clickbait usage behind it. And even with the Ghlaine Maxwell trial, which is going on right now, it seems like they aren't even focusing on trying to actually do anything with the trial. It's as if the the prosecutors didn't even want to really dive into anything, and it looks like they're just gonna let the defense run over them. How do you and your colleagues perceive these trials and what are some of the misunder, the misunders, the misunderstandings that us as, you know, you know, normal civilians, laymen out here when we look at it, that we don't understand about what's going on with them, even some of the verdicts?

SPEAKER_01 20:37

So, you know, first as a lawyer, when you're looking at these cases, you you look at them. I always look at them from the perspective of, you know, a jury can do anything, and they often do do anything, and you don't expect it. So one of my first things I tell my client is that, hey, I think this will happen, but you never know because if it goes to trial, it's out of your hands. So, you know, from these perspective, from you know, the perspective of looking at these trials, you never know what a jury's gonna do. You can you can guesstimate and you can do you know, make an educated guess. For instance, you know, in the in the Cal Rittenhouse trial, you saw what the judge was doing. You saw some of the early rulings that he was making, like you can't refer to the the deceased folks as victims, you know, you can't ask this type of questions. But what what some people don't realize, and it cuts both ways, is that there are rules to trials, right? You can't introduce whatever evidence that you want to, right? You have to the evidence has to be relevant and it has to be true, like it has to be a true. So if I introduce a document, I have to build a foundation that says that this document is accurate and that it's a true, you know, document. Otherwise, anybody would write a note and say, well, no-uh, this note says I didn't do it, you know, and try to introduce it into evidence. But you know, in those particular cases, well, and and and you know, the news media and it's always been monetized. I, you know, people you know talk junk about what the news is now, but it was even that way, you know, if you look back what we learned about the Spanish-American War and yellow journalism, they're trying to sell stories, they're trying to get eyes to either read their newspapers, be on their websites, watch their television programs. So they're they're dissecting things down to the to a very, very primitive and it's not even basic, it's primitive outlook so that people think that things are open and shut. You know, they say, oh, well, you know, the news said this, but the news doesn't have to follow those rules, right? They don't have to follow evidentiary rules. They can report, oh, well, you know, there was a note out there. They can lie.

SPEAKER_03 22:53

There's no thank you for saying that.

SPEAKER_01 22:56

Right. There's no bounds for honesty. Right. So, you know, in written in the Rittenhouse trial, if you actually, you know, people don't understand the legal system. They don't understand how you put up a trial, how you make a defense, and most importantly, what you have to prove in a criminal context to convict someone. So, you know, in a criminal case, it's beyond a reasonable doubt. You know, for civil cases, you know, where you're suing somebody for a personal injury or a bad business deal, it's the preponderance of evidence. And the difference between the two is that the preponderance of evidence is a lower standard, right? It's you know, 50 to 40, you know, 51 to 49%. So if if it's even that slight, the 51 is supposed to win. And the criminal context, the reasonable doubt is a much higher standard. Standard as it should be, because you're going to be taking someone's liberties away. And so in this context, you know, if you know people look at it and go, well, you know, he shot these people and he crossed these state lines with this gun. But if you actually could look at the testimony in the case, the actual facts and evidence, you'll you'll know that A, he got the gun in the state that he was in, right where the where the crime actually happened. And the the witnesses, for instance, one of the witnesses against him was a gentleman that was shot and that didn't die. He testified, oh, I was gonna shoot him before he shot me.

SPEAKER_00 24:25

That's what he put up right there. Who did you say that? That's self-defense. Oh, I was gonna kill him. Yeah, quite a bit. Yeah, that was ridiculous.

SPEAKER_01 24:33

Oh man, just out your mouth, man. What the hell? If you are sitting on a jury and you hear that testimony, and the whole defense is, well, I was defending myself. I feared for my life. And I hear that testimony, I'm going to think quite logically, yeah, he was trying to defend himself. This guy's true, right? And so when you look at those things in that particular case, you're not as surprised by the verdict. But because people don't understand it, they think, oh, well, you know, because he killed some people that supported Black Lives Matter, that you know, it it didn't mean anything. Well, that's not true because the instance here is that you know, it's not the fact that it was Black Lives Matter. You know, our goal is to not say, hey, you know, black people or black issues need special treatment. Ours is we want to be treated with the same type of that you have, Calderon House. That's so the issue here is not the black versus white, it's the the justice system that you know black people get versus the justice system that white people get or rich people get, which goes into the the the right, the the the I can't remember her name, but you mentioned it. I keep thinking of Epstein. His yeah, right, his his partner in crime. She can afford a very good. She can.

SPEAKER_03 25:53

Oh, yes, she can.

SPEAKER_01 25:56

Having resources helps because I can go out and hire the best experts, right? If I got a public defender who I know some very talented, they're the most talented lawyers I know, but they've got 200 cases and they've got a really small budget. So there's only a limit to what kind of defense they can put up. Private lawyers, if if I'm filthy rich, I can put the best defense up that you would ever see. But again, it goes back to what's relevant in a trial. So in in that particular case, some of the things they might be trying to bring in may not be relevant to the fact of whether or not she assisted Epstein in committing these very awful, horrible acts on you know, underage people. You know, but again, from the outside looking in, and if you're just a lay person without any kind of understanding of how the system works, you you won't understand it, and you will never and it causes you, I think, unfairly to lose faith in the justice system. That's that's the big issue. That's not saying well, and it's not and I'm not saying at all that the justice system is perfect or that it's fair, because I think objectively you can tell that you have a much different justice system for rich or for white folks as you than you do for black people or poor people, because you look at instances like death row, there are more black and poor people on death row than anything else, and that's not by mistake. There's more, you know, if if you know BJ and Jerome both get charged with the same crime, there's a 30% more there's a 30% chance that I'm gonna get three times the sentence that BJ gets. Because not because my crime was any worse or that my you know criminal history was any worse, but be the only different fact is that I'm black. You know, you look at the case with with the with the kid in in California who Yes, I was about to say, yes. Oh my lord. He got, you know, the the judge says, I don't think prison would benefit him at all.

SPEAKER_02 28:02

Yes, that's what happened.

SPEAKER_01 28:08

Right. And so it's it's insane. So again, you know, I think the point is that if we look at it from a purely objective standard, our justice system is probably the best in the world, but it's not equal to the world.

SPEAKER_03 28:23

Yeah, that's what I was about to say because you have nuance in the system. Like the judge was able to say, hey, I have sentencing on this fellow. I'm not even gonna put him in jail because I don't think it's necessary. Now, if that was applied to a case where that was like morally correct, like, oh, this guy, you know, he did this, he was getting some bread because he was hungry. We got caught with some weed?

SPEAKER_00 28:44

Oh, I guess that's not something decision.

SPEAKER_03 28:46

Like, if it was something that was, you know, do that treatment, that would be excellent, but it's not happening.

SPEAKER_01 28:52

It's it's the equality and application, right? It's hey, these rules aren't bad in and of themselves, not all of them anyway, but the way you apply them is bad because you give the folks who did whatever they did to Emmett Till the benefit of the doubt. They went through the same system as the Scottsboro boys, but because the system isn't applied equally, the Emmett Till folks get because they're white, get off. And then the Scottsboro boys all get convicted of rape and sentenced to death. And it takes a miracle or a landmark case for them to be given the same rights as you know the other folks that get the benefit of the system. And so, you know, but even having an understanding of the law will help you, you know, zero in on those particular issues because if you don't know anything about it, you can't speak intelligently about what the problems are. And so you can't move the ball forward. But if you do have an understanding of it and you say, okay, well, I know that the justice system works this. You have to, these are your rights. This is how it was done. If you have that basic understanding, and I'm not saying that everybody needs to be a lawyer, but if you have a basic understanding about how the system works, one, you can navigate it better. Two, you can affect change in a in a more substantial way because you know where the problem exists. And so you can go attack that problem versus you know doing something from 30,000 factors. Gotcha.

SPEAKER_00 30:32

So I feel like a lot of times people look at what we feel is right, and Kyle Rittenhouse getting off doesn't feel right. So automatically we just jump to the fact that that like it was a scam, it was a plot, everybody was was doing these things to make sure that it went that way. It may be. I don't know. It does happen. You know, but like then you look at the R Barry case, and I and I I kind of want to dig into this a little bit more because when you know when we're talking about bias and injustice in the system, you know, it's it starts with where police are patrolling, who they're pulling over, and then you end up with what the prosecutor or the DA or whatever is actually trying to have happen. But then at a certain point with the Arber case, um the jury selection went real awry. Right. Uh, and for everybody who's not familiar with that, basically what happened was you you can dismiss jurors as long as you give a reason, but you're not supposed to dismiss them for race. Well, what happened was all the black people got dismissed except for one guy. Now, thankfully, that case went went the right way. You know, from what I saw as a layman, the prosecutor did a great job.

SPEAKER_01 31:50

Yo, she did she did a phenomenal job. And I think I think the point is that those things, it's not either on one end of the spectrum or the other, right? Like they could be trying to give them every single benefit. So in Cal Rittenhouse, the judge was trying to give him every single benefit. Right, and the prosecutor because he looks like my cousin. Right. And the prosecutor's limited by the facts that he has. That witness who was shot, he the prosecutor can't do anything with that, I know, other than take it and try to and try to make the best you can with it.

SPEAKER_00 32:27

I mean, I know you you don't you don't prep your your I mean you're not supposed to lead them and tell them what to say, but like I would assume there's some kind of discussions about you know what happened the day of, like before they even got to that point, right?

SPEAKER_03 32:42

Like why would he why would he let him get on the stand?

SPEAKER_01 32:46

Well, no, so so first he's gotta put him on the stand, right? He's the only living victim about what happened. So the person who can give the best evidence is this person. I prep my clients for trial, I prep them for depositions where you know you go on the record, they ask questions, you answer them. And I tell my clients all the time, hey, don't volunteer information. You answer the question and then you shut up.

SPEAKER_03 33:13

I got it.

SPEAKER_01 33:13

Yep. They never do that, they always talk because it's human tendency to just vomit work.

SPEAKER_03 33:23

And this is the crazy thing because what he what he was saying when he was like, he was saying what was in his mind, not his actions, not what he did. It's just what he was thinking. And that's crazy because that's not that's not what they asked you.

SPEAKER_01 33:36

Right. And so, you know, he's limited, but my expectation is that it's always gonna go off the rails. Where then you look at the you know, Amon Arbre trial in Georgia, you know, like you said, they were trying to give these three guys the benefit of the doubt from the very beginning. The DA said let them go. You know, they weren't gonna press charges until the video was released and everyone saw it with their own eyes. What happened? And then once that once that ball started to roll, even with a even trying to use the particular advantage you think you're gonna get with an all-white or you know, a predominantly white jury, you can't get over the fact. And the prosecutor did a phenomenal job. And you know, I would never advise any of my clients to take the stand. But the the father in this case who took the stand, the prosecutor walked him through how his defense of citizens' arrest didn't apply because they didn't know he committed a crime. There was no suspicion that he committed a crime, he didn't have a weapon, he didn't brandish a weapon, he didn't threaten to pull a weapon, he didn't have a knife, he didn't have a gun. She walked through these, you know, small questions to build this bigger picture of this kid was not a threat. He literally was running through this neighborhood and you stopped him because he was black, and you attacked him because he was black, and you know, uh the the jurors you you look at those facts, and again, a jury can do anything, but you knew that the defense that they had didn't apply. And so if things go the way that they're supposed to, you get a conviction in that case, and that's what happened. But you know, you have to, I mean, it it's all a mixed bag because you know, you're you're gonna get in a system that works against you, you know, black pain is profitable, and so that's why they called it the Ahmad Aubrey trial. Yeah, because they try to make it about him and what he didn't do and what you know, but that's not the case, but you're gonna get those things all the time. And as a lawyer, you have to again try to take all that information, all that bias, all those things that you know are out there, take them, consume them, process them, and then be able to respond in a way that the people on the jury or that the judge or whomever understands at a basic level what you're trying to say. And you saw the difference in those things in the the Written House trial and Almond Aubrey. The prosecutor, while limited to what he had, he did a very different job than the prosecutor in the Amon Aubrey trial. And so, you know, you see all of those things, but having an understanding of how it works will help you to see them more clearly.

SPEAKER_03 36:26

Man, before we move on, I have one more question about little trial stuff that happened. And I just want you to help me understand this because this is it was back in my head. This I was following this stuff this week with that Ghlaine Maxwell trial. I was trying to figure out how and why did the prosecutors in the case, and I understand they're trying to prove that Ghlaine Maxwell was a, not not that, they cannot, they weren't trying to prove that Epstein was a bad guy. They're trying to prove that Ghlaine Maxwell was assisting and aiding in in the crimes and the committing of the crimes. Why, why did they not bring more of the victims for for testimony? Why would they, what, like, what would be the reason for nothing?

SPEAKER_00 37:10

Yeah, yeah, I was there with Bill Clinton and a rabbit hole of power, man.

SPEAKER_03 37:16

They would but that's that's my point. Like, why wouldn't you do that? That's the whole reason why we wanted this trial.

SPEAKER_01 37:22

I'm sure that they wanted to, but if I'm a defense lawyer, my argument, I'm screaming this from the top of the hills, is that whether he was with Bill Clinton or with Trump is immaterial and irrelevant to this case. We're talking about him committing sexual assault on underage people. That has nothing to do with who was present with him. That's just fodder. That's that's prejudicial. So there are rules, rules of evidence, and one of the rules of evidence is Rule 403 where something cannot be unduly prejudicial. Meaning, you know, if let's say that's a murder case and I show, you know, vicious photographs of the murder scene, right? Like we all know that somebody was murdered. We know this person was murdered, but for you to show all of those pictures, that's unduly prejudicial because it's going to make the jury rule off of emotion instead of the evidence what's presented in front of them. So going back to this case, it would be great if I could march every single alleged victim that we knew about on the stand, but then it becomes one repetitive, right? And the the judge has to make sure that this gets done in a reasonably timely fashion because you don't have forever to try a case. And two, it's it becomes unduly prejudicial. And and something that's comparative to to this particular trial was the R. Kelly trial, right? Is that they've they limited the amount of victims that they could put on the stand because it becomes duplicative the testimony. You're gonna say he did XYZ and this five and you know, in these 50 instances, you can do that with 10 witnesses, right? And then you just you paint this person as a monster, and he very may well be, but the jury starts to think, well, all of these people that got up here and said this, then it must all be true. Where you and and another rule of evidence is called propensity evidence, meaning you cannot offer evidence that would make that shows a propensity of somebody doing something. So let's say, you know, let's say I've lied, right? So I lied in this case where you know the perjury case, and they're saying that I lied to somebody else. You can't bring in other evidence of prior times that I've lied to prove that I lied in this particular case.

SPEAKER_00 39:45

Okay, so I understand what they're trying to do there, but there's also like a role of justice to seek the truth and to try to find out what's really going on. And I realize that, you know, we have to do these things very logically and analytically to keep bias out and to keep it from going down that rabbit hole. But I feel like sometimes we wall that off too much and we shut out too much of the actual like seeking right, you know. And I mean, I I guess that's the jury's game with you.

SPEAKER_01 40:14

No, I I completely agree with you. I but I think what the the consideration that people need to understand is that, you know, people have constitutional rights. Right. There's rules to the game. You can there's there is a format and rules to the game. So if I'm, you know, I wanted to be a defense lawyer, a federal public defender growing up, you know, before I became a civil prosecutor, and people would say, Well, you think you could defend guilty people? No. My goal is to make sure that the prosecutor is playing by the rules. That the, you know, and that's my job. If that means that somebody gets off, that they otherwise might be guilty, well, the system still works, right? Like it it's supposed to, but it's supposed to make it as fair as it possibly can. You know, you know, there's another rule that's saying, you know, you can't use character evidence that's older than 10 years old, right? Or a conviction of another crime more than 10 years old. Because let's say, you know, I committed murder 20 years ago, right? And I'm on trial for murder, and you come out there and say, Well, didn't you get didn't you get convicted for this murder 20 years ago? And you say, Yeah, well, then the jury's gonna think, well, he was he murdered before. He must have murdered this time. And whether or not I did, that's not fair. It's not fair to me as a defendant and my constitutional rights to have you bring that stuff up. So as a defense lawyer, that's my job is to make sure that you don't get stuff in that's not supposed to come in. And it pisses people off because you think and you say, you know, oh, well, you know, he quite clearly was guilty, but that's not always true. You look at even now, how many folks are spending 40 years in prison, yeah, and then it comes to find out that the eyewitness testimony was junk, or you know, the bite science that they introduced was junk. And so these people, you know, and there's a saying that it's better to let a guilty man go free than to convict an innocent man. And that's what those rules are set up to do. And it in certain circumstances it sucks. And you know, you go, well, they clearly were guilty, but in other cases, you know, they were actually innocent, and so you know, it it it doesn't work the way that it's supposed to. And so it's really just an attempt to make the judicial system as fair as possible. And sometimes right, you have to find a balance between constitutional rights and rules, and unfortunately, the truth sometimes, right? Because you know, the prosecutor has a job to do. I have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that you did something. So the scale is supposed to be tipped against me as a prosecutor because the consequence, right? I could take someone's life, and we should only do that in circumstances where you can be absolutely sure that people played within the rules and that it's beyond a reasonable doubt that they did whatever it is you're accusing them to do. And that sometimes doesn't look good to it, doesn't pass the smell test, but it's necessary.

SPEAKER_03 43:24

Dang, Kenny, I'm telling you, Kenny, yo, you dangerous man. I'm trying the way you explain that, you know I don't want to hear that, but you know you're right. I know you're right. You don't want to hear it.

SPEAKER_01 43:35

And it's not fun. I mean, and it cuts both ways, right? Like, you know, in my dad's particular case, there were some things that went on that were just really crappy in his trial. For instance, you know, he was going to take a plea deal, and he went up and he was gonna accept the plea deal, but you know, my dad thought he was smarter than everybody else and said, Well, you know, I I would plead guilty, but I didn't do it. So the judge couldn't accept his plea. But in that meantime, the bell, the bailiff in the courtroom went and informed the jury that there was a plea deal, right? And so they were gonna get dismissed. Well, when the judge says, Well, I can't take your plea deal, the trial keeps going. And those jurors already have that information that he was going to take a plea deal. Well, of course he's guilty. No guilty person is gonna take a plea deal. And so, you know, those are things that you know that are against the rules, but they happen. And so you have to be able to deal with them, you know, and there was a lot of you know, that it was more nuanced than that, but that was essentially the case. And my, you know, unfortunately, my dad got in his own way, as defendants often do, and and guilty folks often do. That's why they say, you know, anything you do and you know say can be used against you. They mean that. So the best course of action is for you to shut up and say anything. Truth, truth. And and are you doing that the right way though?

SPEAKER_00 44:58

Like as a as a culture, are we doing that the right way? Because I've I feel like at some point to achieve actual justice, it has to be about like people actually speaking their truth about what happened and taking account for that. But in our system, it's everybody shut up, everybody shut up, don't say nothing, don't say nothing, make them prove it, make them prove it. When you know, in reality, if you did something like, you know, we're talking like like higher level truth kind of things. Like if you if you did that thing, there's gotta be some kind of atonement or fixing or repair to society, but nothing about this is ever about that. It's just about lock people up.

SPEAKER_01 45:43

Well, I think. You're asking is a that's a more existential question. In a vacuum. But you know, if if I do something wrong, I don't want to be punished. I mean, that goes back even to Cain and Abram. God said, Hey, where's your brother? And Cain says, I don't know. And God said, I hear his blood calling out to me. So it's it's you're you're you're taking out the human nature and all of this stuff. So nobody's perfect. Of course, if my kid steals a piece of candy, I want him to tell me, hey, I stole this piece of candy and accept the punishment. That's not how it works. Even from birth, a baby will steal a cookie out of the cookie jar and you say, Hey, did you take that cookie? Yeah, that's crazy. That's crazy. With the cookie still in hand. So in a perfect world and in a vacuum, what you're saying is the best system that there could ever be. But that's not the case because when you start looking at human tendencies, you start to look at, okay, you're going back to the Scottsboro boys. It wasn't that they can that they committed rape, it was they were black. And so, you know, that was not a seeking of the truth. And of course, it happens that way, and it happens the other way where a defendant who's guilty as hell gets off. But which one would you prefer if both of those were competing interest? Would you rather the innocent person be convicted, or would you have the guilty person potentially go free? And in some cases, you have to pick the one because under in a vacuum and under perfect circumstances, you would never get it wrong. But that's not how human beings operate. And so you've got to develop these rules to try to make us operate in that fashion. And you can only get so close to the sun, you're not ever going to get there. You're not ever going to be perfect because it's human nature. So I agree with you a hundred percent.

SPEAKER_00 47:43

Culturally, it creates a situation where you grow up when you steal from that cookie jar. Then as you go through life and you learn and you mature and you grow as a being, everything in our culture is reinforcing the fact that you hide everything you do that's wrong. And we hide it from our friends, we hide it from our family, we hide it from the law, but we don't ever like accept those things. And we're not like our culture doesn't encourage us to delve into that stuff. And I don't know. I mean, you know, this ain't something we can fix in this next hundred years or so.

SPEAKER_03 48:14

Open and honesty is not the the reigning principle in our culture.

SPEAKER_01 48:20

But you have to what's the goal then, right? So is the goal the goal is never for people to be perfect, it's to say, hey, there's a consequence to you doing something wrong. And it's that consequence that's supposed to deter someone from doing wrong. That's as close to to where we can get to, you know, in all logical terms, is so it's not necessarily saying, hey, we're developing a culture where you know you're trying to beat the crime. No, we're we're trying to instill a culture that, hey, we want to prevent you from doing the crime by showing you what happens to folks who do do the crime. But because we're trying to make this fair, because I could be a king, right? And say, all right, I don't care what you say, I'm gonna chop your head off. That's not fair either, right?

SPEAKER_03 49:06

That's that's where we came from.

SPEAKER_01 49:11

You could tell me, hey, I didn't do it, and I know you didn't do it, but because I'm friends with somebody who wants to take your business or wants what you have, I'll sentence you to death because I have a relationship with that other person. So, you know, it it it's you have to balance it about, okay, there's gotta be rules to protect the accused, but there's gotta be consequences for those people who are guilty to try to deter other folks from doing the behavior that we don't want them to do. And that's kind of that's the seesaw that we keep playing as a system.

SPEAKER_03 49:44

Yeah, because we have to live, because we do live in the muck and the mire. Like we don't live on that, on that hill and that ivory tower in the hill. We don't. And that's the part that sucks because just like they always say with with gun laws and say, well, we got gun laws, and that's true, we do got gun laws, and the whole idea of, well, we'll just take people's guns. No, it don't matter because I always tell people, you can say we're gonna take people's guns and make stuff safe. Heck, to no. Criminals are criminals for a reason. They don't follow law. So they're gonna go get a gun anyway. So the like the gun laws, they're there for certain reasons to protect people in certain circumstances, but they aren't an over-encompassing thing. There's no perfect way to make sure that said thug over here doesn't go and shoot this person over here. It's not gonna, it's it's just it's how it's set up. But like you said, we try our best.

SPEAKER_01 50:33

Well, and to make the same point, I think Mike was saying is that you look at it the other way, though, because gun lobbyists pay a lot of money so that gun manufacturers are never prosecuted. They can't be held exactly for exactly so it there's certainly there's a pendulum and there's a spectrum that that pendulum swings on. And so as a lawyer, our job, you know, from a you know, overall standpoint is to nurture this system so that it can be the best that we can. But in the other way, is I have a fiduciary duty to represent my client's best interest. It's not in my client's best interest to go to jail for life. So if I can do something to let's say he's guilty, if I can do something to mitigate those things, for instance, put up evidence about you know his childhood and and the trauma, you know, the trauma that a person went through as a childhood that helped develop them into the person that they are, so that you know you feel sympathy and say, okay, well, I'm not gonna whack you completely hard, but I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna give you 15 years instead of 25. That's my job as a lawyer, is to protect my client's best interest, even if that's to the opposite of what's the best interest of a whole, because that's what lawyers like that's on a very basic level, that's who we are. You are hired to speak on behalf of a particular person, entity, business, whatever it might be. So my first and foremost duty is not to say, okay, well, they're right over there, it's to say, hey, this is why they're not as right as they think they are. Now, again, you know, that there are certain things I won't do, right? So, you know, there are certain clients I won't take on because I have a certain level of of you know right and wrong, my line in the sand. And so, you know, if if a client says, Well, I need you to go lie to the court, I'll never do that. You know, I don't care what it is. You know, we'll I'll take what the facts are and we'll do the best that we can, but I'm not gonna lie, cheat, and steal to get you off. And no lawyer should ever do that. But it's my job to play within the rules, to get someone, whoever it is, the trier of fact, to agree with the position that I'm taking. So that's what you do. And and sometimes, again, it doesn't smell good, but if I'm representing a defendant in a case, I'm going to do everything I can possible to do what's in his best interest. And so, you know, and it and it falls out in a whole bunch of ways. And that's part of the fun of the job, I guess.

SPEAKER_03 53:14

Oh, I have one more quick question on this, also, then we'll move on so we can get y'all enrolling. But do you do you believe that corporations should have peoplehood privileges and citizen privileges? No.

SPEAKER_01 53:27

Thank you. No, they should not be considered persons, but that's that's a you know, political belief to me. What it what it does is if you say a person, a company is a person, then they're entitled to the same rights. So you know, they can give endlessly to political campaigns, and you know, they have I don't think they should have no rights. I think there's a certain things that they should be able to do and certain things that they can't, but they're not a people who are because we can't.

SPEAKER_03 53:54

My thing, my whole issue with that is um you give them peoplehood rights, but they can live forever and they can't be sentenced to death. That's not a human.

SPEAKER_00 54:03

But everybody who's guilty can say it's like human. You can do some really horrible things and then leave, and then everybody's like, oh, well, yeah, sorry, we didn't know that we were just making bank accounts in everybody's name.

SPEAKER_01 54:17

Right, and you have an endless amount of resources.

SPEAKER_03 54:19

You have an endless amount of resources. That's what I'm saying. It's not that's not a normal, that's not a human.

SPEAKER_01 54:23

Like a human is a biological creature, but legally right, and by by having those resources, you tip the scales not in favor of justice, right? If I can say, all right, well, I'll pay you you know a billion dollars for spilling this oil, well, that doesn't fix the people who are honored by it. That just it just helps mitigate something that you did. So people aren't paying for it with because I know that you know, if if I said, all right, well, if you did this corporate whatever, and you know, you stole from all these poor people, so I'm gonna put you to death, or I'm gonna sentence you to, you know, a hundred thousand years in prison, you can the the idea being it's gonna deter other corporate you know people from doing the same thing. But if I say, all right, well, instead of somebody, one of your CEOs or whatever, going to jail, we're gonna, you know, you pay me a million dollars and you know, we'll watch you for a little while. That's not fair. That like you said, that doesn't feel right, but that's because the bigger person is taking advantage of being the bigger, you know, might makes right. Whereas go ahead, might make right, yeah, might makes right. Yeah, right. And whereas little folks, we don't get that benefit of the doubt, you know. So it it it that's a tough thing, but I don't I certainly don't believe that corporations should be.

SPEAKER_03 55:40

Um moving on, I guess you'd say to lighter subjects. Man, of course, I know we've spoken about this before, but we know each other pretty well. We did actually meet each other as undergraduates at CFC. And that's how you know myself and my other brother. And of course, I did DJ at your wedding. And uh man, right? That was such a fun time. I was looking back at the pictures the other day being, and you're just looking at it, man, just remembering that time. Man, that was a beautiful venue.

SPEAKER_01 56:05

Um my mother-in-law absolutely loves you, Anwar. I mean, it you will probably never do anything wrong in her eyes. Based on the fact of you being there and you doing such, I mean, you did a phenomenal job, and it was such a pleasure to to have you there and you know, for to share that experience with you. But man, I mean, she still talks about it to this day.

SPEAKER_03 56:31

Man, we're gonna have to wake up get some go get some dinner or something like that. Especially like I haven't, it's hard to you know go and see people with the current circumstances stuff going on, but I miss, you know, because we have we have community, like we created a community at CC. Even with like some of our other guests we had up here, like Jermaine Johnson, like those are people that we knew that we created community with. And those bonds move move way on beyond college, which was so dope. And just based on that, like, how important do you think it is? And I just want so like some of our guests they can understand this, um, especially dealing with folks who are at the younger end of the spectrum, the importance of having a like-minded community of folks or culturally similar peers to support you as you seek out your goals and as you grow up and become an adult. Because uh another thing, this podcast is about us millennials learning how to adult better and coming into our own as the next generation to you know, take up the mantle from those who are about to, you know, retire, pass on, et cetera. We got to be ready to actually change some of these systems that we're taught that we're talking about today, be influencers in these positions. But to do that, you do need community. And could you speak on the importance of that? Right.

SPEAKER_01 57:38

Well, you know, the the first thing that pops to mind is that no man is an island unto himself, right? Like it truly takes a village, it truly, you know, to move the ball forward. No, a person can only do so much. So, you know, you know, if if I have a friend who's a doctor, right? I don't know anything about medicine, but if I have a question, it's much it's it's an easier thing for me to reach out to him and say, hey, I have this situation, what are your thoughts? Or vice versa. Somebody might not know about the law, you guys might have a question about the law. And because you know somebody, you have a community, and someone is a lawyer inside of it, you can pick up the phone and say, Hey, I've got this question. Or, you know, with Jermaine, he is in the state house. I can pick up the phone and say, Hey, Jermaine, this is such and such and such and such and such. How should I handle this? And so having that community helps you become, I guess, a you know, I think of it like Voltron, right? And so you have all of these different things that come together to form this one overarching, more powerful thing. And so that's exactly what this is. Me by myself, I can only do so much, but us together, we form this bigger thing that's harder to take down, that can get done things done, can handle bigger problems, can you know, do all of those things. And so without community, you cannot do that. And so, you know, having folks that that look like you and and and not necessarily think the same way, but that you have shared experiences helps you kind of get a better understanding of the world. And so, you know, community to me is the most important thing because my first my first duty as a human being is to help somebody's journey along the way, make it a little bit easier for them than it was for me, because that's uh if if I'm not doing that, then nothing else that I'm doing is worth anything, because the things you do for yourself don't mean anything. It's the stuff that you do for other people who a can't do anything back for you, um, and and B who don't have the expertise, those things are gonna stand the test of time. Those are the things that we remember, and those are the things that we cherish as kind of this you know ultimate, you know, humanistic thing. And you know, community is the very beginning of that and always has been.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:12

That's a good answer. That's a great answer because who I'm telling you, this is like because like who you're speaking with, like Mike, that's our community member. Like, that's what people don't realize. Like, Mike, Kevin, and I, we were all community members. We all came up together, know each other from a long time ago, and we stick, we stuck together. And without each other, like this bunch of man cannot do all this stuff without each other.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:32

All of those things, like I know, so going back to my wedding, and why I knew you. I knew you DJ'd. I needed someone to DJ my wedding that I trusted enough to know that they were gonna make it a good time for everybody else and for me and my bride. And so that's that community. We formed together, you know, and I did the same thing with a photographer, did the same thing with a caterer. And so they all come together to make this thing special, and you apply that theory in anything. That's the community makes something special because without community, it don't mean anything.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:10

It doesn't, it's a waste of time and effort. I always tell folks the the reason why you're here as a human is to make other humans' lives easier. Like, other than that, you might as well just go ahead and hit dirt, bruh, because there's no reason to be.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:23

Well, and this world is hard enough, right? Like we just we just got done talking about some very difficult things, you know, and in the justice system and in criminal cases. The world is hard enough, right? And so I don't, you know, not a bruised that the scripture says that you know, not a bruised reed did Jesus break, nor smothering wick did he put out. Meaning, I don't need to make it harder for you. Like that's not my job, it's to help to lift the burden off, not put it on. And so people lose sight of that, and you know, we get all kind of mixed up in in the whole sauce. But, you know, if it that to me is, you know, we talked about you know breaking things down to its most basic form. That is the most basic thing. I need to help other people. Sounds like you do.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:08

Yo, real talk, seriously, man. Like, and before we leave, I'll I remember we we talked about this last time. Could you give a few, are there any resources out there, legal resources where people could go to where they could themselves look up case law, look up how they should go about handling certain things or finding legal resources that could give them assistance? Because like you said, the biggest thing about being an attorney or a lawyer seems to be explaining and and putting together the the how you say the ideas that they need to know before they even go to court or a case or go to seek justice or et cetera. Just understand the information. Are there any resources that are easy to grasp, anything that's online that people can get to?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:50

Yes. So South Carolina has a lawyer hotline that you can call and tell the person what topic you need, and they'll put you in touch with a lawyer. There are also you know several you know legal access groups around the state. In Charleston, you have Charleston legal access, and then you have Charleston pro bono, and pro bono just means you know you're doing the work at no cost. And so Charleston has a pro bono person office where they help out, and so those are great resources. But you know, you have programs like Westlaw and Lexus, which you can go and research cases and and put in like big topics and pull-up cases that you know have to do with those things. And then you have PACER, which is a federal government program where you can get on and do the same legal research. Lexus and Westlaw both cost something. Um there's a subscription price to it, but PACER you can request being given access to it. And I don't I don't think there's a cost associated with that. And then again, you know, what we were just talking about, your community. You know, if if you know somebody, don't don't be bashful, pick up the phone and ask. You know, the the closed mouth doesn't get fed. True. Very true.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:00

And libraries, yeah, that's what I was wanting to say. Yeah, yeah. They still got them. Yeah, they still got them. They still got them. Yeah, they do. Um and um could you any current projects that you're working on uh right now, any uh uh things that we can look forward from seeing from you in the future, any any uh I guess you say any community work that you're doing right now that that the audience should so the the biggest thing that I'm involved in, and I told you guys a story about my dad, there's a program called Turn 90.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:29

It was formerly known as Turning Leaf, and it's a prison reform program that uses an objective-based, you know, you have objective tests, then you have the religious-based programs. This is an objective test where they put folks who are recently released from prison through an intensive eight to ten week program of dealing with the triggers and the things that got them into trouble the f in the first place to help them choose different options and choose a different path and give them the tools to do it so that they can avoid being reincarcerated and it decreases the recidivism rate. And it it the the program is super successful. Amy Barch, the director, is I mean, she did this from scratch. And uh we're trying to grow it through the state. Um, right now we have an office here in Charleston where it started, and we just recently opened an office in Columbia. But you know, those types of programs always need support, always need funding. So, you know, anybody's listening who's interested, they also have a t-shirt shop because what they do is they give um these these guys job training and they have a job placement rate. I think it's around 99% of getting these guys jobs. But a part of the program is them working in this t-shirt shop. They have to clock in, they have to be on time, they have to you know do all of those things, you know, to be a productive citizen, but it's in a and it's in a scale that will help you be successful instead of just kind of throwing you out there and saying you either sink or swim. Phenomenal program. And you know, I I I can't recommend it any greater. Go to their website, buy some, they sell they sell the t-shirts, or if you're ever interested in taking a tour, you can reach out um through their website, turn90.com, and request one. And and and those folks over there are great people.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:19

So excellent, excellent. Um, before we get out of here, Mike, do you have any more questions for Kenny?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:24

Man, I heard somewhere you were a sneakerhead.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:30

So yes, I I I am a lover of sneakers to my to my wife's. She married into it when we first started dating. I had a sneaker, a closet full of sneakers, and it's just only gotten worse. But when I was a kid, you know, my when my pops went to prison, my mom, it was her and four children. And so we couldn't afford sneakers. So I told myself at a young age, as soon as I start making my own money, I'm going to buy sneakers. And I have been, I just, yeah, I just be buying stuff at this point just to be buying it. I, you know, I I work in an office, so I know.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:05

So you made you made you made a really good purchase recently before, you know, you know, my man Vincent Avlo passed.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:12

Yeah. I I got some off-white twos. I got the black and blue ones and the the white and uh red and black ones. And I mean, unf unfortunately and fortunately, the the price of them skyrocketed, and I bought them before they skyrocketed. But you know, I don't I'm not in the resale game. I you know, I buy my shoes to wear them. I went into the office on Thursdays and Fridays.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:37

And as you wear things with with suits and stuff, man.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:39

You wear some if I don't have a client meeting, you know, I dress more casual in the office, but you know, yesterday. Um I wore some Jordan 11 in the office. You know, I I wore the cool birds that just came out. Fresh it out, fresh it out.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:55

Dress sneakers are select, man. You can do it. Like you gotta be selective, but I like that. Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:01

Right. And you know, and my thing is again, I that's my voice. Like I like sneakers. And so I don't drink, I don't smoke, you know, I don't, you know, my kids are taken care of, my wife is taken care of. And you know, she very graciously allows me to indulge myself in those things. And it's even gotten to the point where my kids are like, oh, we know what daddy wants for Christmas. He wants for shoes. Like that there's there's no guesswork in doing everything. So yeah, it it it's a problem, but it's you know, there could be worse problems out of that. Exactly. And don't ask my wife that she she might give you a whole different thing.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:38

We may have to get her on the show to talk about that and a little about her stuff, but um Kenny Listen, she's a much smarter better person than me. She's a much smarter and a better person.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:49

I I out kicked my coverage when I got with her, and people, you know, I got married. My I was a 3L in law school, and she was a year in front of me, so she was already out. But they're like, you know, we we got engaged within you know a year of dating, and my thing was I I had to hurry up and lock it down before she realized, you know, what she might have been getting herself into.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:13

So oh my goodness. Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:16

Oh my man.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:17

Oh Lord Jesus. Well, on that note, man, I'm gonna say Kenny is great talking to you, having you on as our guests on the show today. We're happy to have you take this time out again. Um, we will, of course, be with you again in the future. And one of the things I know I I would uh want to do is is bring you back in to talk about certain things that do happen in the legal world so that our audience can have an understanding on these things. Especially as things, you know, as we move into next year, you know, things are coming up on Docker. We got uh new cases coming through that are important. And I know our audience does care about these things because we are at the age where this stuff does it does impact us. Is we aren't, you know, young 21-year-olds out here just living wild out in the world anymore. So we definitely we actually decision makers now.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:00

Who care about what we think?

SPEAKER_03 1:10:01

We our votes count.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:03

And well, any way that I can be a resource to anybody, any of you guys, especially, I'm happy to be a resource. You know, we we got the same kind of vibe and the fundamental beliefs of helping other people. So anytime I can you know be a resource to any of your listeners or to you guys, let me know. But I also want to give you guys a shout out. You guys were nominated for the best um nomination for the last podcast of the year with SC Indie Net Awards of 2021, and I've already done my part, and my wife has done that part. Not online, we put our information in and we voted for you guys, and you know, all the listeners, make sure y'all I don't know what the the timing is, but if there is an opportunity to go vote, y'all go do that because y'all are doing big things, and it's important to our community. To you guys are the the avenue and the tool that we can build community through. Appreciate it. Um reaching the masses, and what you guys are doing is amazing and it's necessary. I appreciate it. So I thank you guys for having me on.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:04

Man, man, I appreciate it. That's uh that's high honors coming from you, man, because you're somebody that we respect. I've always respected you since I I knew you uh back in college, man. And uh as they always say, relationship goals, man. Hashtag, yep, hashtag relationship goals, brother. Other than that, I am gonna sign out for today. I want you to be able to get on to what you got to do. So for the Hilltop Glove podcast, it's DJ and what Mike on the ones and twos. Mike, holla at him. There we go. I know skips in the background. Kenny, thank you so much for being our guest today. I want everybody to have a blessed Saturday and a blessed weekend. Take care of you and yours. Make sure you tell everybody around that you love them. Have a good one.